#62 – The Illusion of Achievement: Why Success Doesn’t Always Feel As Good As It Looks | Empowerment & Career Advice

[00:00:00] Loree Philip: Hi, and welcome to Daring to Leap. I'm your host, Loree Philip. Are you chasing a version of success that sparkles on the surface, but somehow leaves you feeling empty inside. Tune in as our insightful guest, Michelle Pollack helps us uncover why.

[00:00:19] Loree Philip: Success so often doesn't feel as good as it looks and what we can do about it. Let's dive in.

[00:00:27] Loree Philip: Michelle Pollack is a high performance and leadership coach who works with ambitious women to determine what success looks like to them now. So their lives can feel as good as they look using her framework, the art of compassionate command, Michelle's clients learn to own their strengths.

[00:00:48] Loree Philip: Use their values as a compass, set boundaries, trust themselves, and let life be messy in order to show up bigger, braver, and bolder in the [00:01:00] world. Welcome to the show,

[00:01:02] Michelle Pollack: Michelle. Thank you. It's so great to be here, Lori. Thanks for having me.

[00:01:07] Loree Philip: Yeah. It's so great to have you here today, and I'm so excited to talk about the topic we're going to talk about.

[00:01:13] Loree Philip: But first of all, I'm just curious. I'm sure you didn't come right out of college being a performance and leadership coach. So tell me what were you doing before and what really caused you to make that shift in your career?

[00:01:28] Michelle Pollack: So I, when I came right out of college, I actually was a performer. I was a dancer and an actress and I was doing that for a bit of time.

[00:01:39] Michelle Pollack: I did some regional theater and then I was in New York City and I was, I found myself auditioning for a national tour of a Broadway musical. I was actually at a callback and we had to cartwheel across the room. That was part of the callback, like just cartwheel across the room. And I got to the other side of the room and I thought to [00:02:00] myself, I don't really want to leave New York City to cartwheel across the stage eight shows a week.

[00:02:06] Michelle Pollack: Like, that doesn't feel like what I had in mind when I set out to do this. And I started to realize that who I was becoming wasn't necessarily aligned with the dream I had once had of myself. And it's It's that part of my story that my journey from there to where I am now was a constant search for what is the thing that I do want now, because for years and I mean, from the time I was a child, three years old, I was sure I was going to be a star theater was my life.

[00:02:42] Michelle Pollack: That was it. I was a theater major in college. And so. I realized I had the realization that that wasn't what I wanted anymore, but I wasn't clear about what I did. So where I started was I went to the other side of things and I actually worked for Broadway producers and I was part of the team that [00:03:00] helped to bring the show Avenue Q to Broadway.

[00:03:03] Michelle Pollack: And I worked with the film director Baz Luhrmann on his adaptation of love OM for Broadway. And I had, it was an incredible experience. And then I left New York and I went out to Los Angeles and I worked in television and I had these very like sexy, shiny jobs, right? Where people were like, Oh my God, that's so cool.

[00:03:23] Michelle Pollack: It's so amazing success by other people's standards. And yet. I constantly was feeling like I do not want this. Like something doesn't feel right to me, right? Something just feels like it's missing. And I kind of just went on this quest to find the missing thing. At the same time, it took me a long time because it was so challenging for me to give up this idea of what I was supposed to be.

[00:03:56] Michelle Pollack: So, when I finally left performing and went [00:04:00] into more of the business and producer side of theatre, I had this picture, like, I am going to be a producer. That's the direction I'm going in. Whether it's theatre or it's film and TV. And that was the trajectory I was on. And even when kind of the universe threw some signals at me, that maybe that's not the direction you want to be going in, it was so challenging for me to let go.

[00:04:24] Michelle Pollack: Because in my brain, if I didn't fulfill that idea of what I was supposed to be, then I was failing. But ultimately, It was having children that really allowed me to reassess and get clear about what was most important to me. And doing that allowed me to start to see things through a different perspective.

[00:04:45] Michelle Pollack: And I decided I, I, I went, I was off from work for a short time, staying home with my kids. And when I went back to work, it was part time. I was creative consulting for Paramount Plus. I worked on Grease Live! with [00:05:00] them. And that was kind of I'm dipping my toe back in the water to see if this is what I want.

[00:05:05] Michelle Pollack: And that was when it was like, Oh, this is not what I want anymore. This is very clear to me that this is not aligned with the woman that I currently am. And so I had a very good friend who was a coach. And I had had people tell me for years, I'd always, since the moment that I started therapy, when I was 23 years old and saw so much change for the good in my life, I went to therapy on and off throughout the years, but I was always interested in personal development.

[00:05:34] Michelle Pollack: I was constantly reading books, wanting to understand who I was, why did I operate this way? Could I operate at a different or a higher level? And, so people had. Often said to me, you should be a coach, you should be a coach. And I was like, what's a coach? That's not even a thing. What are you talking about?

[00:05:51] Michelle Pollack: Turns out, it's totally a thing. I was the same way. I'm

[00:05:54] Loree Philip: like, what are you talking about?

[00:05:55] Michelle Pollack: Yes. Right. And so I had a conversation with this good [00:06:00] friend who was having a lot of success coaching. And he pointed me towards the program where he did training and it was very unlike me. I'm usually one of those people that researches everything, but he was thriving and I really trusted him.

[00:06:14] Michelle Pollack: And I just said, great, I'm going to try it. And so I went for my first training and it was. Like the heavens opened and like the light came down and the angels saying, ah, it was just like, Oh my God, this is my thing. This is so obviously my thing. And all these doubts about all the different paths I could go down that had gone through my mind over the years.

[00:06:37] Michelle Pollack: Just that was it. I was clear and I was committed. That was in 2016 and I have not looked back. I once I did that first, that first part of the program, I signed up for the whole thing and I started my coaching business in 2017, I got certified and did the whole thing, so. What a story,

[00:06:57] Loree Philip: Michelle. What a story.

[00:06:58] Loree Philip: I, I [00:07:00] really appreciate your journey so much. And what came through to me while you were speaking is, and I wanted to point this out is that there is so much clarity we can find when we go and do something and we realize. No, this is not what I want to do. So, going back and testing the waters initially, and just getting that reaction of, no, this isn't it.

[00:07:26] Loree Philip: It, it's good information, even though it's not telling you what you should do yet. You didn't know exactly what that was yet. I, I think sometimes we hesitate to get that sort of negative reaction with something, but it is really good information to have. It's like, well, not knowing that this is not it is information that's important.

[00:07:48] Loree Philip: And then you can if you want to really listen to yourself in that moment, you can pivot. If you want to keep hitting yourself, hitting against the wall, you can keep going. Yes,

[00:07:59] Michelle Pollack: that's exactly. I mean, [00:08:00] I hit my head against the wall for so long. I think partially because I didn't know what else to do and I didn't know where to go for help.

[00:08:08] Michelle Pollack: I wish I'd known about the idea of a coach at that time to help me. I mean, I saw a career counselor and we did all the different tests and. It didn't help me. It didn't, that didn't help me to, it told me a lot of what I already knew

[00:08:24] Loree Philip: about myself. Right, right. You can't tell what you don't know through those types of tests, right?

[00:08:29] Loree Philip: Right. So

[00:08:30] Michelle Pollack: It was, it was a lot of time spent not trusting my gut. And like, kind of, I, I call it operating from the brain up. I just kept listening to my brain telling me over and over again, No, this is your path. You just have to have more grit and you have to keep going after it. Even though my body was saying to me like, This is not it.

[00:08:51] Michelle Pollack: This is not what you want. You don't feel good. So.

[00:08:55] Loree Philip: Yeah, it, it is such a hard place to be in [00:09:00] because we've been programmed for our whole lives around what the idea of success looks like you're supposed to go to college and then get a fancy job or whatever it is for you that your, your ideal was as a kid and heard from your parents from, from the society that in the community that you grew up with.

[00:09:22] Loree Philip: And then. When you get there, and this is what we're going to talk about, you get there and your job looks great on paper and people like, especially in your case, Michelle, working in in like television and that kind of thing, people are like, wow, good for you. You've made it. Yep. But inside. You weren't feeling it.

[00:09:45] Loree Philip: So, let's talk about that. Let's talk about why success doesn't always feel as good as it looks.

[00:09:54] Michelle Pollack: I think you hit the nail on the head. I mean, I think you, you teed this up perfectly. It, [00:10:00] it, we, we are so young when we set out to, quote, make it in the world, right? We're, we're babies when we leave college. And by the way, let's talk about the fact that we're supposed to know what we want to do with our lives when we go to college.

[00:10:13] Michelle Pollack: I mean, I actually, I did because I was so, I knew I wanted to be an actress, but most of my friends, when we got to college at 18 years old, they had no idea. They just picked something because they had to pick something. Right. And. There's so much wrapped up in following through on this thing you said you were going to do.

[00:10:37] Michelle Pollack: And there's so little room for us to continue to evolve and expand as we get older. I mean, our brains aren't even fully developed by the time we leave college. Your brain does not fully develop till you're in your mid to late twenties. How could you possibly know what you want to do for the rest of your life?

[00:10:55] Michelle Pollack: And then there's that. Part of it as well, that we're supposed to do one thing [00:11:00] for the rest of our lives, which is so unrealistic because again, as we grow and evolve and meet new people and have new influences and learn new things, our worlds expand so vastly and greatly. And I think the societal idea that success is a long term job and getting to the corner office and owning a home and having a family like.

[00:11:26] Michelle Pollack: All of these things that do we ever stop to say to ourselves, well, what do I really want? What makes me tick? What excites me? What lights me up inside? It might have nothing to do with a family or an office or and so when we set out, especially highly ambitious people, when we say we're setting out on this path, sometimes it actually holds us back rather than truly catapulting us forward.

[00:11:56] Michelle Pollack: Mm

[00:11:56] Loree Philip: your spot on there as far as we [00:12:00] decide to step our 1st foot on these paths at such young age and we don't know what we don't know. And we don't really even know ourselves. Like, I didn't know much about me at all when I was that age and. Honestly, I could tell you that it wasn't until COVID when I started actually asking myself, what do I want?

[00:12:24] Loree Philip: What lights me up? What would I be great at? what kind of impact could I create if I actually loved what I was doing? And so these, these questions weren't even a thought. I was like, okay, I got my first job with the big name company. I was making more than my mother had been making after 15, 20 years as a teacher, I already made it on day one.

[00:12:51] Loree Philip: I was like, go me. And so I was going to be here, be there for 30 years, just like everybody else until. [00:13:00] I started to not feel, like it was for me anymore. I grew out of that

[00:13:05] Michelle Pollack: dream. Yeah, there's, I'm sure a lack of satisfaction. You start to have the Sunday scaries, right? The Monday, Sunday blues. Or there's this feeling of, I know there's something else out there for me.

[00:13:21] Michelle Pollack: It shows up in multitudes of ways, but, I think you said something, you said you stopped to ask yourself what you want. And I think that's, we go, we just start going on automatic. We wake up, we go to work. If we have children, we take care of them. We take care of our families and we run on automatic and we never slow down enough to just actually get introspective and.

[00:13:44] Michelle Pollack: Ask ourselves the important questions, and they're just a few really important questions to help guide us down a path or we ask the questions. And like, for me, the answer was, well, I don't know. And I got stopped and stuck. And I [00:14:00] don't know, rather than saying, okay, well. Let's see what we can do, where we can do some exploring to figure it out.

[00:14:07] Michelle Pollack: The other thing I wanted to say about asking yourself what you want as a woman. I, I have this theory that when women allow themselves to actually, truly Ask themselves, what do I want and go after it. It is a radical act of social justice because we have been conditioned for so long to take care of everybody else's needs and put everybody else's needs first.

[00:14:35] Michelle Pollack: It's just, that's how we survived for so many years because we couldn't own a home. On our own until 1974, or open a bank account on our own until 1974, or own a credit card. We had to have a man who did those things with us, whether it was our husband, or our brother, or our father. We could not rely solely on ourselves.

[00:14:56] Michelle Pollack: And so the way that we were able to make sure that [00:15:00] we were alive and taken care of, that we survived, was by making sure that we took care of others. Mm hmm. And so that's still courses in our DNA today, it takes a long time to absolve ourselves of those, those instinctual feelings that we have. And so as we start to do that, as we start to actually shift into, I can be a caretaker of my family or of other people in my life, but I also, I can put myself and my wants and my needs first, because if I don't, nobody else will.

[00:15:35] Michelle Pollack: And as we do that, and our daughters and our sisters and our grandchildren start to see us doing that, it shifts, that's what shifts the DNA.

[00:15:43] Loree Philip: Yep. Yeah, I really love that idea, Michelle. I hadn't thought about it that way before, but it feels true to me. And, and I, I honestly, I was in that trap for myself as far [00:16:00] as my.

[00:16:00] Loree Philip: My energy was expressed outward, on my team with my family, with my kids, with my husband, and I was happy kind of bringing everybody else up and supporting everybody else up and I, I wasn't skilled at turning inward. And reflecting and understanding what do I really want and those kind of questions that we were talking about.

[00:16:31] Loree Philip: It was so foreign to me that when I, I was like you, I didn't have a clue what else I wanted to do. Not a clue. Didn't know where to start with it. I had at some point, I had thought, well, if I knew what I was passionate about, I would do it for sure, but I don't know what it is. So I'm going to keep. Okay.

[00:16:51] Loree Philip: With the status quo, right? Until I think the universe and our bodies and all of the signs [00:17:00] that show up that tell you something's not right. Keeps coming up and coming up until you, and it will get stronger and stronger

[00:17:09] Michelle Pollack: and stronger head until you message. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Right. Yeah. I mean, I went and took yoga teacher training and I took an interior design class and I looked into going to grad school to become a social worker, which is probably the closest that most aligned with where I've kind of landed up.

[00:17:29] Michelle Pollack: But it was, it was, it wasn't, I think it was the fact that I couldn't let go of the idea I had. And when I finally was able to let go of that, it was that and also it was the constant voice. Of the inner critic in my head telling me, like, what, why, what else are you going to possibly do? That voice saying, what else would you do?

[00:17:53] Michelle Pollack: You're on a trajectory. Why would you leave it? You're making decent money. What else is there [00:18:00] in our society? You're making good money. You have security. You're not qualified to do anything else. And then I had all sorts of like entrepreneurial ideas, which I just shot down before they even.

[00:18:13] Michelle Pollack: Yeah. Not to mention the fact that I was constantly looking for external validation from other people to let me know that anything that I was thinking about was okay. And when I didn't get it, that was it. Yeah. And I think with coaching, where something. There were a couple of things that were different.

[00:18:31] Michelle Pollack: I didn't tell almost anybody what I was up to because I actually didn't want their opinion. Right. I was afraid if I heard their opinion, I was going to take it in too much. And so it wasn't until I was like knee deep in that I finally started letting people know, I'm not asking you, I'm telling you, this is what I'm doing now.

[00:18:50] Loree Philip: Yeah. That's a different, a different energy. I'm not asking you, I'm telling you this is what I'm doing. I feel like you feel that it's important to [00:19:00] you and it's going to happen. And so get on board or, well, and it was interesting with friends and family. What I found is that they're just scared for us, they're not trying to be negative Nancy's.

[00:19:15] Loree Philip: They're not trying to be mean or not believe in you. What they're trying to do is keep you safe. And it, it feels and it's perceived to be risky to go leave whatever secure thing you might be doing now and try something new or different. You've never done before. And, and so that, that. That difference in, in the security and the newness, it's scary for the person who's doing it, but it's also scary for the people that care about them.

[00:19:51] Loree Philip: And so there is a bit of that in there. And so I appreciate that shift in your perspective because at some point it's like, this is going to [00:20:00] happen,

[00:20:00] Michelle Pollack: Yeah, I think that was a big thing and it's a big thing that I work on with my clients is around learning to trust yourself and getting clear about that.

[00:20:10] Michelle Pollack: Those voices in your head that are also really, at the end of the day, just trying to keep you safe. That's what they think they're doing. They think. But it's having you avoid all risk and you can't really do anything in your life without risk. At the end of the day, right? You can't try anything and there's no guarantees.

[00:20:30] Michelle Pollack: We have these jobs that provide security. Nobody knows what's going to happen. No one knows. I can't tell you the number of people. I mean, I got laid off from my job at CBS when I was eight months pregnant in 2008 in the when everything just crashed, I had been promoted four months earlier.

[00:20:50] Michelle Pollack: So it was like, I didn't think, who thought they were going to lay off a pregnant lady, right? Right, right. But I wasn't I was a liability because I [00:21:00] was going to be out of work for four months and they were going to have to pay me, right? So, and then they didn't, whatever. That's a whole other story.

[00:21:09] Michelle Pollack: But my point is nothing's guaranteed. Nothing's, and would you, the thing is on your deathbed, Do you ever want to look back and go, I wish I'd done all these things. I can't tell you the number of people that come to me after they have a health scare, where they kind of wake up and go, I only have one life.

[00:21:31] Michelle Pollack: Yeah, we do. And by the way, there's all these ideas about a coach is going to make you burn it all down. And like you're going to have all this huge change. Change happens slowly and incrementally. And you're in charge of your life and you're in charge of the changes that you make and a good coach is never gonna make you do anything.

[00:21:52] Michelle Pollack: No, no. They're gonna ask you to be aligned with who you are and what you want. That's the whole point. [00:22:00] But, there's just, there's nothing worse than looking going back and saying, I wish I'd done this instead. I wish I'd taken that chance.

[00:22:09] Loree Philip: Yeah, well, there there's that. And if we circle back to the topic, why does success not feel as good as it looks?

[00:22:22] Loree Philip: So even if. We're not on our deathbed looking back, thinking about regrets. Like, there's a reason to have our day to day experience feel better in the moment, right? Yeah, who wants to

[00:22:35] Michelle Pollack: walk around in their life feeling empty?

[00:22:38] Loree Philip: Right, right. So, is it, Michelle, in your opinion, I was just thinking about this, The reason why success does not feel as good as it looks is because it's not your definition of success.

[00:22:54] Loree Philip: It's not your where you're supposed to be. What are

[00:22:59] Michelle Pollack: your thoughts? [00:23:00] I think that's 1 part of it. The other thing that I think can often happen is that. Along the journey to get where you're going, you've often conformed so much to societal standards because you've had your eye on that prize. And then you get there and you realize you've abandoned yourself and who you are and how you want to show up in the world.

[00:23:24] Michelle Pollack: And sometimes. What I find with people is two things. Sometimes it's actually just about coming back to yourself and showing up in the role you're in and in the world you're in from your truest self, from your values and your perspectives and bringing your full self back to the table. And sometimes there's a total pivot to be made.

[00:23:48] Michelle Pollack: Sometimes there's a realization that what I've been going after, this thing that I have is truly no longer what I want. And then discovering what it is that, that they do want instead, [00:24:00] but either way, there is an element of abandoning yourself and release, like, listening to the outside world and the outside noise much more than.

[00:24:13] Michelle Pollack: Your yourself it's a perfect barometer of when this is happening is if you keep thinking I'll be happy when I hit this next big goal and then you get there and that goal post of when you'll be happy keeps moving and you keep never finding happiness. This is probably you. Right? Yeah.

[00:24:34] Loree Philip: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:24:35] Loree Philip: I'm glad you brought that in because that that is a big 1 in terms of, We have our eye on the prize, and we become the person who we think needs to be to get that prize. That's exactly right. Based on who else we've seen do it.

[00:24:50] Michelle Pollack: That's exactly right. And it's so true in leaders, especially female leaders who have had largely examples of male [00:25:00] leaders who've come before them, and not a lot of great examples of female leadership that owns the incredible qualities that women bring to the table because they're women.

[00:25:13] Michelle Pollack: And so. So that, I worked with a lot of women who are in leadership positions and find themselves floundering because they have abandoned their values in leadership. And that in and of itself doesn't feel good. And so we redefine leadership by what does it mean to you to be a leader? How do you want to show up in the world as a leader?

[00:25:36] Michelle Pollack: Who do you want to be? How do you want to be that thing? What are the values you want to bring to your team and to the culture? And that can shift everything. Getting reconnected to yourself and, it's also a boundaries thing because if you're abandoning yourself constantly on that road to success and looking at other people's, at other people's journey as a [00:26:00] roadmap, you often throw yourself out the door.

[00:26:05] Michelle Pollack: And the things that you really want and I'll work as many hours and then all of a sudden you find yourself saying yes to everything at work all the time without the capacity to actually do that and you're killing yourself and you're overwhelmed instead of being able to simply say, listen, I need to know what the priority is.

[00:26:23] Michelle Pollack: X or Y, that's what I have the capacity for right now. Let's find another way to get Y, right? But we don't learn those things. These are, I mean, we have to learn trigonometry in high school, but we don't learn about emotional intelligence. It's mind blowing for me.

[00:26:42] Loree Philip: Yeah. Yeah. I know. I, I feel like I've been talking about this a lot lately with different people about just in.

[00:26:50] Loree Philip: And I think that's where we have to come back to is to have a bit of grace and compassion for ourselves, because we didn't learn these things. We were not modeled these things. And [00:27:00] so. But in any given moment, we can decide to shift and we could decide I do want to learn how to do this and most things in life are just skills and practice and habits and you can change.

[00:27:18] Loree Philip: The, the way you look at yourself, the way you treat yourself, how to set the boundaries, how to prioritize for you, that kind of thing is something we can learn to do and it's okay that we haven't done it yet. Because we didn't know any better. I

[00:27:36] Michelle Pollack: mean, it's not normal in our society. It's not normal to sit down and say, hey, I want to get really clear about my core values and then I'm gonna use those as a compass for the choices I make in my life.

[00:27:48] Michelle Pollack: Like, do you have those conversations around a dinner table with friends? No, but it's actually when, when you sit down and I would challenge anybody who's listening. If you [00:28:00] sit down and you do look at your core values, and I usually have my clients pick like 4 or 5, and you rate them on a scale of 1 to 10 as to how much you're living that value in your life.

[00:28:13] Michelle Pollack: What you'll find is that. Two or three, you're probably living at a pretty high level, and two or three, you're probably living at a pretty low level, and that's where your lack of satisfaction is happening. Mm. And so when you find the gap, then you get to discover how to fill it. Mm hmm. Right. And to me, that is the number one, most important step on the path to discovering what success truly means to you.

[00:28:40] Loree Philip: Okay. Yeah. And let's, let's talk about that. That's what I was going to ask. And so you started off, with value. So what can we do about. Shifting out of success, not feeling great into defining it for ourselves or moving into [00:29:00] a path or, alignment with ourselves so that we can feel good in what we're doing.

[00:29:06] Michelle Pollack: Well, I really, I mean, I truly do feel that getting clarity around your values and by the way, values are done, not stagnant. Your values might change from the time again. That was one of those things I discovered, like I had different values when I was performing to when I had a family and I think if I'd known about the idea of values along the way, I can look back and go, Oh yeah, my values went from A to Z, and I was trying to fulfill this value of A, but that wasn't actually that important to me anymore.

[00:29:37] Michelle Pollack: So it was ignoring this other value that became important. So recognizing what's most important to you and where you're Not actually honoring that value in your life and where you're not creating boundaries with other people who aren't honoring that value for you either. So I really think [00:30:00] values and boundaries go so hand in hand with each other because.

[00:30:04] Michelle Pollack: There's a lot of times with a value that there are certain behaviors or ways of being in the world that just don't work for you, that leave you feeling like you've been stepped all over or like, like you're abandoning yourself or leave you feeling angry, frustrated unheard, all these different things.

[00:30:26] Michelle Pollack: Now it, whether there's truth there or not is a whole other conversation, but if you can acknowledge, Oh, this value is not being honored and that's why I feel this way, then that truly allows you to dig in deeper to figure out how can I honor this value? Is it possible where I am in this position? Or do I need to look outside of this organization instead, sometimes for some people, it's not even a matter of changing jobs.

[00:30:57] Michelle Pollack: It's just a matter of changing companies to find a [00:31:00] company where the culture is more aligned with the values that you uphold. And that will bring you a totally different sense of fulfillment.

[00:31:08] Loree Philip: Yeah. That's what I was just thinking when you were talking about that, Michelle, is that. Just changing your, the culture in which you work in could, it's not like you have to go get re skilled in a different, completely different field.

[00:31:21] Loree Philip: That's right. Yep. But 1 of the things that came up while you were talking for me is that. The reason why we need to go and do this initial upfront work and understand our values and have them right in front of us so we can look at them. And this is the same with priorities. Our own priorities is knowing what they are.

[00:31:41] Loree Philip: You cannot enforce boundaries around something. You don't know what it is. That's

[00:31:46] Michelle Pollack: right. That's right. And I, the same thing, I feel the same way about getting really aware around the inner critic voice in your head. Because people do not realize how many of their thoughts are [00:32:00] actually sabotaging them until they actually start to identify that voice.

[00:32:03] Michelle Pollack: And sometimes, sometimes it's obvious. Sometimes you really hear that judgmental voice. Sometimes it's so sneaky and it sounds like the voice of reason and it makes so much sense and it's totally rational. So, When you really gain clarity a around the voice and then how to work with it instead of trying to get rid of it because it's never going away.

[00:32:25] Michelle Pollack: Right? That voice is never it is with us for the rest of our lives. But when we learn how to work with it, it takes away a lot of the power. And so when you can look really clearly at what you want, and then you know how to work with the party that's trying to dissuade you from going after it more effectively.

[00:32:44] Michelle Pollack: Then it's just about going on the journey and learning along the way, you fall down, you figure out why you fell down and you get back up and go again and you try something different because what you tried last time had you fall down. So if you try something [00:33:00] different next time, maybe there will be a different mistake, but you'll learn from it rather than, well, if I don't get it the first time, then I failed.

[00:33:08] Michelle Pollack: And I think that's another thing along another part of that idea of success is that I also think when women get to a certain level, they feel a lot of fear around acknowledging all these thoughts that they're having. So they feel so. Alone, and yet so many of them are having these same thoughts,

[00:33:31] Loree Philip: right?

[00:33:32] Loree Philip: Yes, it's, it's very, very common when you look at the statistics and you look at them around imposter syndrome, self doubt, those types of things it's very high percent. I think it was 85 percent of female executives. That identify with having thoughts of imposter syndrome, and it's not just women.

[00:33:55] Loree Philip: There are a lot of men that also feel this way. And it typically has happens a [00:34:00] lot in these higher positions because. When we, as individuals take on these roles and responsibilities or make a big change into something and we're stretching ourselves and we're outside of our comfort zone to your point, our body, our mind is trying to keep us safe.

[00:34:20] Loree Philip: We've never done it before. We're just trying we're in this self protection mode of. Wait a minute. Are you sure you want to do that? Because who knows what's going to happen? A tiger might come out and eat you it's like clear. Right. the protective part of how our brain is wired to keep us safe.

[00:34:38] Loree Philip: And you're right. It won't go away. But I loved, so I had an episode that released a few weeks ago. Whitney Alexandra said, Okay. Your inner critic is fake news and, and I just laughed because it is and it's not that it's good to kind of look at it and laugh a little bit.

[00:34:54] Loree Philip: and then you, like you said, work with it and just be aware. It's not truth. That's coming [00:35:00] through every time. And

[00:35:01] Michelle Pollack: one of the other things you brought up how many high level executives have imposter syndrome because they're constantly leveling up. The more you level up and take risks in your life, the louder those voices are going to get.

[00:35:14] Michelle Pollack: So I actually have the perspective. If you can just shift it and go. Oh, there's my imposter syndrome. It means I'm working on something bigger. It's not an indication that I don't know what I'm doing or I'm not on the right track. It's just an indication that I'm stepping outside of my comfort zone. And that's how you innovate and grow.

[00:35:34] Michelle Pollack: Yeah. So if you're trying to avoid, avoid imposter syndrome all the time, you will not innovate and grow.

[00:35:42] Loree Philip: Yeah. I mean, if you, if you want to stay comfortable, you won't have those thoughts. When I, I was in my 16 year career. I wouldn't have said I, I identified with anything around imposter syndrome, but I also wasn't pushing myself outside of my comfort zone.

[00:35:59] Loree Philip: Very [00:36:00] often. I wasn't volunteering for certain kind of scary things. And I, and I wasn't, willing to do that. And the second I step out of that and go try to start and go start a business, launch a podcast, put my face out there, put my voice out there. Oh, yeah, that imposter popped right out, of course, in my head, in my body, in my everything it's, it's just crazy.

[00:36:30] Loree Philip: But it's there and it's, I do also feel the same way you do, Michelle. I actually think it's. As much as we don't like it, it doesn't feel good, it's It's kind of a good sign. Like we're, we're stretching. Good for you.

[00:36:44] Michelle Pollack: Exactly. Exactly. So it's just a matter of having that other perspective to, to glom onto or to be reminded of.

[00:36:53] Michelle Pollack: I keep post its all over my house with little notes that remind me of things like this, because especially when [00:37:00] we're in the thick of things, it's so easy to forget, and that those, that inner critic and that imposter syndrome voice, they run on out of automatic are. Our gut and our intuition, we have to remind ourselves to listen to that.

[00:37:14] Michelle Pollack: That's not our natural state of being. So to have reminders, to slow down and to take a beat and to remember to listen to there's more than one voice in there, right? Is really helpful. Mm

[00:37:28] Loree Philip: hmm. Yeah. Well, and essentially. Yeah. What we need to do is turn down the volume on the one and turn up the volume on the other.

[00:37:36] Loree Philip: And create the time and the space and the intention to do it. Yeah. And, and that'll really make a big difference. Absolutely. We're going to start to wrap up here, Michelle, I'd love to hear any last closing thoughts or ideas, a pep talk for our female listeners in their careers, going for success, what can they do?

[00:37:59] Michelle Pollack: I [00:38:00] just, I think, like, trust yourself if something's not feeling right, listen to that, and also be willing to ask for help. You do not have to figure all of this out alone. It's very hard to ask the questions to yourself. It's very hard when you're inside the fishbowl to see things and that's really, find somebody, whether it's a coach or a colleague or a mentor to sit down and have a conversation with to help reflect back to you, to be able to explore a little bit more, but trying to do it in your head just ends up sending you in circles over and over and over again, right?

[00:38:42] Michelle Pollack: And so I think, when you feel that sense of something's feeling off, don't ignore yourself, allow yourself to go there and ask the questions because ultimately where you'll lead is either [00:39:00] to finding out that what you'll find out what wasn't working. It might be a little change. It might be a big change, but you don't want to.

[00:39:11] Michelle Pollack: Find yourself in that same position 20 years later having felt that way for 20 years, right? That's no way to live a life. There is fulfillment and Joy and the ability to really operate inside of your zone of genius for everybody It's available to you as long as you are willing to actually ask yourself the questions And get intentional about the way you live.

[00:39:35] Michelle Pollack: Yep.

[00:39:37] Loree Philip: Thank you so much for that, Michelle. If you could tell our audience how they can connect with you, learn more about you and your work.

[00:39:45] Michelle Pollack: You can find me on Instagram at michelleepollock. And you can find me on LinkedIn, which is actually where I'm starting to show up more these days. Yeah. My website is Michelle Pollack dot com.

[00:39:58] Michelle Pollack: And there's a couple of [00:40:00] there's right now there's a free download for how to get out of your own way. That will take you through a really great exercise actually around getting more in touch with your inner critic and giving you some of the ways you can actually utilize it. And shortly I have another one coming out that I'm really excited about called how to stop saying yes when you really mean no.

[00:40:22] Michelle Pollack: So that one's around really getting clear about setting boundaries and how to do that. So those are a few of my resources and ways that you can find me and get in touch with me.

[00:40:31] Loree Philip: Thank you so much. I really had such a great conversation with you today, so I appreciate you sharing your story and your wisdom with us.

[00:40:40] Michelle Pollack: Thanks for having me, Lori. This is great. Thank

[00:40:42] Loree Philip: you.

[00:40:43] Loree Philip: Thank you so much for listening to this episode. If you've enjoyed it, I would love for you to subscribe. If you're already a subscriber, don't forget to share the podcast with a friend.

[00:40:55] Loree Philip: Make sure to tune in next week, we'll be speaking with Victoria [00:41:00] Pelletier about her inspiring journey, what makes her unstoppable, and the future of work. I hope you have an amazing week.

[00:41:10] Loree Philip: It's your Time to shine. Bye.