#42 – How to Recognize and Address Burnout Symptoms & Self-Advocate for Your Well-Being | Career & Women Empowerment

[00:00:00] Loree Philip: Hi, and welcome to the daring to leap podcast. I'm your host, Loree Philip. I'm so excited to dive into this week's episode with you. Are you feeling overwhelmed and burned out in your career, struggling to advocate for yourself? This week, we're speaking to Neelu Kaur it wellness and burnout management expert. In this episode, you'll learn how to recognize and address burnout symptoms early. Improve yourself, advocacy skills. And be inspired by Neelu's story of resilience in her career after she faced being downsized. Over and over. Let's dive in.

[00:00:42] Loree Philip: Neelu Kaur is a certified NLP master practitioner and coach from the NLP center of New York. She has 15 years of experience specializing in adult learning and leadership development in financial services, consulting, and the tech industry.

[00:00:58] Loree Philip: She focuses on [00:01:00] leadership, mindfulness, and burnout management for individuals, teams, and organizations. Nilou recently published her first book, Be Your Own Cheerleader, which focuses on self advocacy for Asian and South Asian women. Welcome to the podcast, Nilou. Thanks, Lori.

[00:01:18] Neelu: I'm so excited to be here.

[00:01:20] Loree Philip: I'm so excited to have you on today.

[00:01:22] Loree Philip: And I know it's been a while since we chatted, but I'm so interested to really hear about your journey and the main topic we're speaking on today of burnout. But let's just get started with your story. Tell me a bit about what you were doing before and how that shifted for you.

[00:01:40] Neelu: Yes. So if anyone needs to learn how to get fired or downsized, they should come to me because I have been fired and downsized so many times. I've lost track of that. And so really what happened for me is my last full time job was around 2013. I worked at a large financial services company where I was training and coaching [00:02:00] technologist.

[00:02:00] Neelu: And so when I got downsized, I decided to leap and take a, take a risk and really Take a risk on myself. And what that meant for me was figuring out how I was going to be my own boss and solopreneur. And so since then, so it's almost been 10 years now and time flies, there's lots of ups and downs with it.

[00:02:20] Neelu: But yes, that was sort of the turning point for me to decide that I no longer wanted anyone to tell me that they don't, they don't want me. They don't value me. They don't value my thinking and the way I. And so that was really the impetus for me to leave.

[00:02:32] Loree Philip: That is so interesting because you, you said you were kind of taking a risk on yourself and going for it.

[00:02:40] Loree Philip: And what I think what's interesting to hear, especially right now in today's day and age where there is so much downsizing, right? And so historically we had thought. Okay. You have this amazing career and you feel this sort of safety and security around it. And the risk [00:03:00] is positioning yourself to go do something else.

[00:03:02] Loree Philip: Like whatever that is, maybe something new, maybe something on your own, maybe something completely different than your expertise. And At the end of the day, that sort of security and safety is not common anymore. Is that kind of how you experienced it?

[00:03:21] Neelu: Absolutely. In fact, I always felt when I did have a job, and this is just my own personal experience.

[00:03:26] Neelu: I always felt unsafe because before I was downsized in that last position, there was about two years of hearing about potential downsizing, and so I just kept. moving through each round of them. So literally every day it was like, when is the shoe going to drop? Right? Like it was this fear built in daily that I'm going to lose my job and I need to start thinking beyond this job anyway.

[00:03:48] Neelu: So the fear was embedded throughout most of the time that I was in that role and I was in that role for three years. So imagine two years of those three years was there was fear every day that I'm going to lose my job. And I also experienced that [00:04:00] in other roles in consulting and other types of jobs that I had prior.

[00:04:04] Neelu: To grad school. So it was, I, for me, I always felt like I was at risk of losing my job. Mm hmm.

[00:04:10] Loree Philip: So then you decided, okay, I'm going to take this career into my own hands and figure this out. What was it for you that made you feel confident let go of whatever was holding you back to go ahead and do that instead of going back in and finding another

[00:04:27] Neelu: role?

[00:04:29] Neelu: Well, for me at that point, as I mentioned, like it was my third, fourth or fifth, like either getting fired or downsized. So I was really like, if I just keep continuing that as it's. It's the definition of insanity, right? Like doing the same thing and expecting different results. So I thought, okay, let me try to figure this out.

[00:04:44] Neelu: And it wasn't easy. So I, I did many permutations and combinations of different offerings and services. It was not a linear path. And so I know many of your listeners, whether they're in internal roles or they're thinking about. going externally. For me, it was [00:05:00] never a linear path. And many of the women I've coached, it's never really a linear path.

[00:05:03] Neelu: You sort of like learn along the way and, and trust the universe that you're going in the right direction. Yes.

[00:05:09] Loree Philip: I resonate with that so much. I'm still on the early stages of my path and I can already see like where I'm going now versus where I thought I'd be going when I stepped out for sure is different.

[00:05:23] Loree Philip: And it's, it's definitely. One step at a time. That's for sure. Yes, absolutely. I want to talk a bit about You know the focus of our conversation today is about Burnout and mental health tell me a bit about why that topic is so important to you Is that something that you experience personally in your career?

[00:05:47] Neelu: Yes, actually before my career. So as a teenager, I used to experience debilitating panic attacks and I'm my family's from India. I was born in India, raised in the U. S. And mental health was something that we were just not [00:06:00] comfortable or even brought to the surface. No one had words or definitions around.

[00:06:04] Neelu: panic attacks or anxiety or depression. We just couldn't talk about it openly. So I would literally suffer in silence. And then as I got into sort of my early adult life, I started just getting very curious about modes of healing that would help me. I saw my mom struggle for so many years and still struggles with.

[00:06:22] Neelu: sort of challenges around anxiety. And so I was determined to figure out modes of healing that would help me. And, and one of the things I learned is that it's not a one pill that can make you happy or one pill that fixes everything. It's really a cocktail of things. And so for me, it was this exploration into a cocktail of remedies that would help me.

[00:06:41] Neelu: And that's really where I started. And I noticed now that. Even when you're a teenager, you can experience burnout. You can experience burnout from studying or taking tests, right? There's different types of burnout that I've experienced throughout my life. And I think now I just have the vocabulary to talk about it, about my experience.

[00:06:58] Neelu: And also now I've helped so many [00:07:00] people talk about it and bring it to the surface because what burnout looks like for me may be very different than what it looks like for you.

[00:07:06] Loree Philip: Let's talk a bit about that definition of burnout and what you've seen how it is expressed differently with different people.

[00:07:15] Loree Philip: What are some typical... Symptoms or clues that people can start to notice to recognize if they're burnt out. I mean, obviously my visual of somebody in burnout is just like pure exhaustion like overwhelmed, stressed, that kind of thing. What, what are you seeing out there with your clients? I

[00:07:37] Neelu: mean, you hit it right on the head.

[00:07:38] Neelu: It's, it's overwhelmed. When you have so much that you can't move and you're sort of paralyzed, that's one sort of symptom where it's like you have so much, so many tasks and you just can't get begin. And the other, the other sign of burnout is starting a lot of things and not finishing them.

[00:07:56] Neelu: Right? Like you're starting, you're, you're starting a project, you're super excited and then you just have [00:08:00] so many of those going on. And then you get overwhelmed because you've started so many things and it's hard to complete, right? Like those are, those are some common things that happen. We're really excited about things.

[00:08:09] Neelu: We take them on. And then before you know it, we've piled our plate with so many things that we don't know what to do. The other thing that I've noticed for myself and for many of the people I've coached is at Sunday night, there's this sense of despair. And if it just happens like one or two or three weeks, okay.

[00:08:24] Neelu: It's like It's not chronic, but if it's sort of this chronic Sunday night scaries, then you know that there's something that needs to change. Otherwise, you're just going to keep feeling that every Sunday. You're going to dread that next week coming up. So those are some basic signs. I've also noticed some people just start to feel like they can't...

[00:08:42] Neelu: They're physically, it manifests physically, so they can't move, they can't, they'll just lay on the couch and they, they just can't get off of the couch. I mean, that's sort of an extreme of burnout, but then it takes many forms with many different types of people.

[00:08:55] Loree Philip: Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. Cause when we think about burnout, I think of the [00:09:00] extreme and I'm curious.

[00:09:02] Loree Philip: It's on it's obviously a spectrum and you can kind of start somewhere and if you don't do something about it, it's likely going to start to move up and move up and move up to the extreme side. Some of those early symptoms, I mean, how do we know that it's time to actually shift without waiting till we're completely?

[00:09:29] Loree Philip: Exhausted and stressed and our body's freaking out because that is, those are quite a few people I've talked about left their careers because they were so overwhelmed. Their body was like breaking out in hives or they couldn't eat anymore or whatever it was, it got to such a extreme point and I'd love to.

[00:09:50] Loree Philip: Have people start to notice these things sooner.

[00:09:53] Neelu: I think it starts with the dialogue, the internal dialogue, the self talk, right? So you're thinking about your Monday, you're thinking about your week. [00:10:00] It's what's actually going on in your head? Are you asking, what types of questions are you asking yourself?

[00:10:05] Neelu: So usually when, when people are working with me or I'm facilitating workshops with groups, one of the common themes that comes up is sort of the inner dialogue is around dread. It's around feeling unfocused, not fulfilling their purpose. Being in a job that they're not fulfilled in, right? If you're constantly in this job that just doesn't give you joy, it is going to do something to you.

[00:10:25] Neelu: We just don't know what that something is. It can sort of wear away at your soul. And so that can lead to burnout. So there's just different forms that happen, but many of the times it starts with your dialogue. What are you saying to yourself about your job, your career, your business, whatever you're involved in?

[00:10:42] Loree Philip: Yeah, that is a great place to start because that inner dialogue never leaves us. So it's not like you shut down your computer or you, you, or you leave for the day and you can just shut it off because it comes home with you and it's in your head,

[00:10:59] Neelu: right? [00:11:00] So, yeah, it's with you everywhere you go.

[00:11:03] Loree Philip: So when we think about, Okay.

[00:11:06] Loree Philip: Say I'm starting to see some of these signs. I'm experiencing dread. I'm worried on Sunday about the week. I'm kind of overwhelmed. Not all the time, but you know, I'm noticing I'm not getting things done because I'm procrastinating and putting it off. I'm just exhausted a bit. What, what are some of the things we can do to address that?

[00:11:28] Loree Philip: Burnout and I'm curious about this too, because sometimes we think about only external, like I need to change jobs, I need a new assignment, I need to take this or that off my plate. And I'm curious about both internal and external things we can do because at least I noticed for myself that it, it's often both.

[00:11:52] Loree Philip: And just like you were saying, the inner dialogue is internal. It's not that somebody's calling you every five minutes. It's your head that's talking [00:12:00] to you every five minutes.

[00:12:01] Neelu: Yeah. One of the things that I think is so important are routines and much of the work that I teach and facilitate and even speak up on is through the lens of Ayurveda, which is a holistic healing system based in India.

[00:12:14] Neelu: It's 5, 000 years old. And one of the premises of Ayurveda is to have routines in your life. So morning routines that set you, sets you up for success during the day and then evening routines that let you sort of have restorative sleep. So we want to start with just some basic things and you know These days you can get burned out just by looking at all of the research on burnout like there's so many things you can do So it's like i'm here to offer two or three things start with those small things small simple steps and see how you are So for example, one of the things that I always tell all of my Participants in my workshops and people I coach is start your morning, ideally an hour without your device.

[00:12:56] Neelu: Because what happens is your brain, you are training your brain [00:13:00] to be reactive and distracted all day long. If you wake up, you reach for your phone and you're responding to things, you're posting, you're commenting. And so most people will say, I can't do an hour. An hour is just too much. Then I say, try 30 minutes.

[00:13:13] Neelu: And in that 30 minutes, soothe, soothe yourself. Start your day in a calming way. It could be drinking some coffee, drinking tea, whatever you need. meditating, gratitude, whatever it is that allows you to sort of set yourself up to be in a more balanced state. Because oftentimes the overwhelm that happens during the day is because we've been jarred out of bed.

[00:13:33] Neelu: We have these alarm clocks that are alarming our nervous system. And so we're jumping out of bed and then we're just, it's like robots. We're robots every day of our life. And so that is a recipe for burnout. So these simple strategies that are you, Veda provides are so simple and yet. Hard to incorporate because our life is so glued to our devices.

[00:13:54] Loree Philip: Yeah, that is a really good one. And I, I think you answered my question, but I was thinking about what if we feel [00:14:00] stressed that we're not checking our phone? That probably takes a while because until you realize that nothing went wrong. When you didn't check your phone first thing in the morning and there's on the other side, the benefits.

[00:14:14] Neelu: I mean, I think most of us who are not like ER doctors, life will just, I mean, ER doctors need to be connected to their devices. There's a life threatening emergency. Right. But for those of us that, I mean, 30 minutes is not that much time to just sort of allow yourself to Just reset, start your day out.

[00:14:34] Neelu: And also most people that say they can't be without their phone for 30 minutes need to be without their phone for three hours. Like they're so connected to their phones that it's, it becomes a problem. It's just, you're constantly challenging your mind, right? Imagine the burnout when you are so distracted and you can't focus on your tasks because you're on Tik TOK or you're on Instagram, which I'm guilty of.

[00:14:56] Neelu: Right. But the thing is we want to start to think about, and another strategy is to [00:15:00] time box our social media. So we can get into the scrolling sort of doom scrolling where we're just comparing ourselves to other people. We're looking at other people's lives. Oh, this person has the best job and my job sucks.

[00:15:12] Neelu: And now I'm burned out because I want their life. Right? There's so much of that scrolling going on. So really time boxing your social media consumption is probably another step that you can take to alleviate burnout.

[00:15:25] Loree Philip: Yeah, that, that, that one, I had not considered. In connection with burnout, but I could see where when I think about burnouts, there is a piece where this concept of time and not having enough time to get everything we need to get done in a given day.

[00:15:45] Loree Philip: And that starts to add up and get stressful. And so when we're looking at what are the time sucks in our day that are completely not supportive, right? And I've If so, [00:16:00] if you don't feel that great after you've been scrolling on social media for an hour and now you're behind, I could see where that is not useful.

[00:16:10] Neelu: And not only are you behind, but let's say you're the time element, right? Like you're looking at someone else. Perhaps this person you're looking at, you're cyberstalking them, right? You're going through their profile, you're looking at their pictures. Let's say they're around the same age as you are. They have a big home, they have these beautiful cars, and you're like, wait, I need to catch up, I'm behind.

[00:16:30] Neelu: Right, so the burnout is, oh no, I'm not at the right place in my career at this stage. This person is my colleague from grad school, or we know each other from years ago. So this time element can also be part of the way we look at things. The lives of other people on social media. I've not, I've not caught up to that person.

[00:16:48] Neelu: I'm behind. And then that makes you feel like you are behind. And then you go, then you stop looking at your phone and then you go to work or you go back on your computer and then you can't focus. Cause your brain [00:17:00] is just, it's this downward spiral of negative self talk about how you suck, how you've, you've not been able to keep up, right?

[00:17:07] Neelu: Like you're not at the right place for where you need to be at your, at this stage of your life. I mean, the negative self talk is what can. Create that downward spiral and that actually piles up and that will impact your productivity, obviously. Mm hmm.

[00:17:21] Loree Philip: And so for your clients that come in with this negative self talk, what, what do you suggest to them as a way to sort of work on that for themselves?

[00:17:34] Neelu: Well, a lot of the work that I do with my clients is based on NLP neurolinguistic programming, which is essentially how we speak to ourselves and how we speak to others. So the idea is that to become master communicators, we, we don't expect people to meet us at our bus stop. We meet them at their bus stop, but it starts with your own.

[00:17:51] Neelu: Self talk. And so one of the strategies is the types of questions that you ask yourself. So there's two types of questions. There are problem framed [00:18:00] questions, and then there's outcome framed questions. So problem framed questions are like, why do I suck? Why am I terrible at my job? Why is my colleague not helping me in the meeting?

[00:18:11] Neelu: Right? Like those are very blame accusatory problem focused questions versus outcome frame. Questions are who can I reach out to for support? What other resources can I goodnight access? Who else can I speak to? Much more outcome framed, much more compassionate, and you're still trying to get at the same.

[00:18:30] Neelu: problem. You're still trying to solve the same problem, which is you may not feel like you're skilled to do the job or you're not skilled to do this task. But the way in which you ask those questions of yourself can really impact the next actions that you take.

[00:18:42] Loree Philip: Hmm. And is that something I'm assuming we just learn through repetition on.

[00:18:50] Loree Philip: Where our instinct is to think about that positive angle of the question because our minds, our brains are on autopilot and if we've [00:19:00] been negatively asking ourselves these questions for our whole lives, just thinking, okay, I need to start changing this now and then you might beat yourself up a bit because it won't stop.

[00:19:12] Loree Philip: Right. And then you're, so is it, it's, it's about. I guess it goes back to habits, right? Nelu, like just catching yourself and, and sort of without judgment, almost like in a mindfulness way. Reframing it.

[00:19:28] Neelu: Yeah. I mean, it's like a muscle, right? The more you practice and we go to that, we go work out every day.

[00:19:33] Neelu: We do our yoga practice. We do these things for our wellbeing. And this is one of the things that we need to actually focus a lot of energy on. Because you're right. We're sort of hardwired to look at, we can have five things in front of us. And one thing goes awry, but four are going really well. You're our brains are hardwired to focus on that one thing.

[00:19:51] Neelu: So we have to always train our brain to sort of be in that sort of outcome place, that outcome frame types of questions that we're asking.

[00:19:58] Loree Philip: So what [00:20:00] other, if we're going to, I like this idea of habits because it, it puts in place a system in your life. Where your day to day is sort of in such a intentional way that will help you avoid a lot of the, the, the burnout type of things any kind of craziness in your life. You can kind of navigate it a little bit more smoothly.

[00:20:27] Loree Philip: What, what are the other habits that you recommend clients and people that are looking to? To put into their day to

[00:20:36] Neelu: day. I mean, it's so simple and yet we don't do it. And it's literally like when we start to feel. So not well, if we start to feel not happy, it's to ask ourselves, what do I need in this moment?

[00:20:48] Neelu: So not waiting till we're triggered, not waiting till we've had an argument with someone at work or with our husbands or our wives, our partners, but if we're just the use your feelings as a barometer to ask you that question. So [00:21:00] every time you start to feel unwell in any way, what do I need in this moment?

[00:21:03] Neelu: And usually we are our best teacher and we know what to do. So in that moment, you may say, I need to take a walk. Okay. Outside I need to take a walk around the block and you get off of my screen So again, it is literally the discipline to the minute you start feeling unwell ask yourself What do I need in this moment?

[00:21:21] Neelu: And so if you use your feelings as a barometer, it's pretty easy to check in

[00:21:25] Loree Philip: Yeah this is something that I started doing for myself in the last couple of years, and it really wasn't even something I had considered before. It wasn't even an idea in my consciousness to even check in with myself or ask myself what do I need? But our feelings are so powerful, and if you're feeling a certain way, there's a reason.

[00:21:47] Loree Philip: And when you ignore it, you're sort of ignoring yourself. And from that point, it can just build and build and build. And I had heard this [00:22:00] analogy of a story from somebody that kind of illustrates this really. I thought it was powerful, and it was this idea of, if you were holding up a glass of water, It would be really easy to hold up for a minute.

[00:22:13] Loree Philip: It wouldn't even feel heavy, right? But if you were to hold that glass of water with your arms stretched out for hours, for days, for weeks, all of a sudden, that one glass of water would be so heavy that you couldn't Carrying your arms would be hurting. And so this is the same thing with feelings is if we don't address them in the moment or soon it's not like we can catch it every time.

[00:22:39] Loree Philip: They just get heavier and heavier and heavier. And our burden is that right? And so by releasing it. Over time, you just, it's lighter, it's easier to deal

[00:22:51] Neelu: with. One of the things that I just thought of when you were saying this, was we create these to do lists all of the time, right?

[00:22:57] Neelu: I don't know about you, but I live by my to do [00:23:00] list, and I actually get a, like a hit of dopamine when I cross something off. so happy that I got something off of my plate. So if in the moment something's happened, you're in a conversation with your coworker or your partner and you're feeling unsettled sometimes, why not just add that to your to do list?

[00:23:16] Neelu: And that way you always check in with yourself to say, why dig a little deeper because again, like you said, it is an avalanche. It will come back tenfold if it's not sort of taken care of. So I've started to actually do that. And I forgot that I was doing that until you gave me that analogy is that if something's happened during the day and I don't feel like I have the time to really deconstruct it and really analyze it, I will just write it down and have, and just remember the context.

[00:23:42] Neelu: Otherwise I will forget. And then ask myself like, what was going on? Why did you feel that way? What brought about those feelings so that I handle it and it's not going to multiply. And exponentially get bigger and bigger as the days go by.

[00:23:58] Loree Philip: Yeah. Yeah. I [00:24:00] hadn't thought about that previously either. And that's a great idea to put on your list.

[00:24:05] Loree Philip: I , I love to-do lists too. And I used to be that person who would write something I just did on my list so that I could. it off.

[00:24:15] Neelu: I still do that. So yes, I just love, I love that.

[00:24:19] Loree Philip: Yeah.

[00:24:20] Neelu: Well, it's also goes to being your own cheerleader, which is celebrating small successes. I talk about that in my book.

[00:24:25] Neelu: It's that if that gives you a small hit of dopamine that you completed a task, why not do it? And so I think it's great to do that because again, in that moment I feel, okay, I didn't get to do X, Y, Z, but I did this thing and I'm going to go ahead and celebrate whatever that looks like.

[00:24:39] Loree Philip: Yeah, I'm a big, I'm a big fan of celebrating your wins and something that I've been.

[00:24:45] Loree Philip: I've been making a habit of for just actually a month or so, I've been making a habit of it, writing it down every day. And I found it to be very useful especially the really tiny ones because those are the ones that we don't give ourselves [00:25:00] enough credit for. But they add up and we are doing so much.

[00:25:04] Loree Philip: I bet people would be surprised if they wrote down all of the things that they got done in a given day. It, it, it really is a lot, especially if you're... A mom and, and a professional and a friend and you start to add up all these roles we play and you can certainly see all of the amazing things that we accomplish every day.

[00:25:29] Neelu: Absolutely. I think one of the things that we forget is that sometimes Just checking the mailbox and going through some bills and you get through those bills and it's just so a part of our lives or you're in your inbox in your email and you get bills and you pay them online. I mean, those are even the you have the moment to celebrate that you just completed that.

[00:25:50] Neelu: And I think some of the things we do these micro moments. Which I talk about in be your own cheerleader. We, we, we're so robotic and we're so used to doing them. We don't even think that we can give [00:26:00] ourselves a pat on the back for these micro moments or these micro resilient moments. But so it's not just celebrating these big successes, like completing a degree or getting certifications.

[00:26:09] Neelu: It's actually thinking about our daily micro successes that we have that we just overlook because they are so small.

[00:26:15] Loree Philip: Yes. Well, let's talk a bit about self advocacy. You mentioned your book and I know it's a strong message and a theme of what you like to talk about. Tell me why self advocacy is so important and what we can start to do to advocate for ourselves more.

[00:26:34] Neelu: I mean, for me personally, one of the reasons why it's such a such a big topic is because it was not behavior that was modeled to me growing up. So I'm from India. My parents are from India. We came to the U. S. And we come from Asian cultures are very collective, and they're very we based and American culture is very eye based.

[00:26:53] Neelu: And so what happens is when you are taught to just keep your head down, it's all about group harmony. That is a recipe for [00:27:00] disaster in corporate America and corporate America. You're supposed to toot your own horn and talk about your accomplishments. And that is actually one of the reasons I think I kept getting fired and kept getting downsized, kept getting my ideas taken and in the workplace was because I didn't know how to self advocate.

[00:27:14] Neelu: So for me personally, it's, it's a very salient topic. And then over the years I have coached so many women, Asian, South Asians, but also very introverted people or neurodivergent people. And not just women, men too. I was actually shocked that there are people out there that are tall white men that have challenges at self advocating.

[00:27:33] Neelu: I just, I had a bias that it was easy for them. And there are some people who are introverts and they don't feel comfortable. talking about their accomplishments or raising their hand and saying, actually, no, that was my idea. And so self advocacy, I realized it wasn't just something I struggled with over the course of the years in my coaching practice.

[00:27:49] Neelu: I realized there are so many people that struggle with self advocacy.

[00:27:53] Loree Philip: Yes. Yes. And I, I, I'm starting to think it's actually. A broader [00:28:00] issue than I used to think it was because the more and more I talk about this, about being able to not only celebrate your own accomplishments, but speak them and talk about the things that you're doing, even even if we get down to just the facts of it, like I have a podcast, great job it's not that I'm making up this.

[00:28:27] Loree Philip: Big bloated statement about, Oh I'm reaching millions of people, whatever it is, it's just give yourself the credit and be able to speak it. And I, I, I also struggle with this. I continue to struggle with this. So I'm very curious. Tell me, tell me what are some of the things that you talk about maybe in your book or with your clients on strategies for, for self advocacy, especially for somebody that's not comfortable

[00:28:56] Neelu: with it.

[00:28:56] Neelu: One of the things that I've noticed is that [00:29:00] many women say that they don't feel they can be authentic if they are self promoting because that's just not their personality. It's not something they feel comfortable with this really uncomfortable. So I say it's So in my book, I talk about the we collective culture and the I individual culture and sort of this dial like the speedometer in a car where, and women in general are very, we based where it's about taking care of others.

[00:29:24] Neelu: It's about group harmony. And so one of the things I say is think of it as a dial. So you are authentically you. And if you are in a group brainstorm. Or a group deliverable. You're in a project. You're working with people. That's when you want to turn up your we and then you talk about your shared deliverables.

[00:29:41] Neelu: You use we base language. And then if you're in a performance review conversation where it's all about your accomplishments, your credentials, that's where it's where you want to turn the eye dial. So you still are you, you're still Lori, but you're just contextually shifting based on who's in front of you.

[00:29:57] Neelu: And I think that sort of analogy helps [00:30:00] women feel like they can be authentically them, but think of this dial and know that based on the context that they're in or who's standing or sitting in front of them, they can adjust the dial.

[00:30:09] Loree Philip: Because it is so true

[00:30:11] Loree Philip: that If you're on a team, a bigger team and you're working on something together, there is so much that we individually do and contribute that we can authentically talk about in our own way. And it's almost, it goes back to, to habits and getting comfortable with that and practicing it. In

[00:30:32] Neelu: actually in one of the chapters in my book, I think it's chapter five, interruption shields.

[00:30:37] Neelu: So these are words or phrases that we start to use to interrupt when we need to get our point across or when we need to bring attention to the fact that it was our idea. And so based on your context, right, if you're in a very formal situation, a formal industry, you might say. May I interject here?

[00:30:56] Neelu: Can we circle back to right? So you want to start thinking about these [00:31:00] phrases. And again, again, it's like a muscle. So it's using this muscle. The more and more you practice these shields or these interruption shields, the more practice you're going to get interjecting when you need to, because oftentimes when, let's say you're on a zoom or Microsoft teams meeting and there's 20 people and you said something and then the Why would A person after you or two people after you took your idea, you want to be able to interject and make sure that your idea was heard and that you get credit for it.

[00:31:24] Neelu: So even though there's a we, there's a group, there's still the I, right? Like you still hadn't the idea or you still had the deliverable. And so it's really important that you bring attention to it. And if in that, not in that moment, then that you do that at some point.

[00:31:37] Loree Philip: Yeah, that's an interesting, example, because I think if I would to step into that example and that were to happen to me, obviously I would want to have credit for my idea, but I would feel like by stepping in to say, Hey, wait a minute. I guess you wouldn't say that was my idea but you might bring it back up and [00:32:00] say I'm glad you brought up that idea that I had mentioned, here are some already other ways I had thought about tackling it or something like that where you're adding to it because it was your idea, you had thought about it previously, or you had a reason for it.

[00:32:16] Loree Philip: Without feeling like you're just being like, Hey, that was my idea.

[00:32:21] Neelu: Right. Like the way you did it was very tactful, right? Like you're bringing up that it was yours, but you're adding on to it. So it's like the improv of yes. And so you're just circling back to yes. That was, I mentioned this earlier and I have extra things to say, or I have to add on X, Y, Z.

[00:32:36] Neelu: So that just sort of anchors in that it was Lori that came up with that idea. And everyone around you knows that it's Lori.

[00:32:44] Loree Philip: Yeah, I'm feeling good about my idea already.

[00:32:46] Neelu: Yeah. Yes. Exactly. So these interruption shields, again, just like those morning routines, those evening routines, it is discipline.

[00:32:53] Neelu: Practice one or two things and you'll notice that the more you do it, the more comfortable it'll feel. It'll feel less [00:33:00] viscerally uncomfortable to interrupt a group if you're using those interruption shields.

[00:33:03] Loree Philip: That's so great. I think where I want to. Close out on our conversation today is just to kind of talk about bringing in self advocacy as it's related to burnout or any kind of mental health issues you might be experiencing.

[00:33:18] Loree Philip: Let's bring these two topics together and talk about a bit how a person might be able to self advocate for themselves when they're feeling Burnt out or overwhelmed or quite a bit off than usual,

[00:33:36] Neelu: right? Like self advocacy is not just about advocating for yourself in performance review conversations.

[00:33:41] Neelu: It's really about asking for help. So right now in the current situation that we're in, there have been many companies that have downsized. And so some people are. Bearing the weight of two to three roles and it's on one person to do all of this work. And that again is a recipe for burnout. So in that instance, self advocacy looks like [00:34:00] asking for help, talking to your manager, sharing your concerns, asking for other resources.

[00:34:05] Neelu: So self advocacy can absolutely lead you down a path of avoiding burnout. If you sort of take. Take that moment and really advocate for yourself and what you need. And there's many other instances where we can self advocate, not just in a performance review conversation, but asking for help. So if we're at home and we're caretakers for taking care of children or elderly parents, and we need more support, it's like talking to your partner about additional support.

[00:34:31] Neelu: So how we are in one situation is how we are in other situations. So wherever we can practice self advocacy is. Where I say, let's start. If you can start at home, it might become easier to do it at work. If it's easier to do it at work, try doing it at home. Right? So let's become self advocates and our own cheerleaders in all of the situations and contexts that we're in.

[00:34:49] Loree Philip: Yes, I, it's so important. And I love this idea about self advocacy. Not just in a promotional sense, but in a what do I [00:35:00] need and and actually asking for it in the moment and not waiting till somebody asks or like you mentioned, the performance review might be, it could be a place, but if it's scheduled two months away, right?

[00:35:15] Loree Philip: It, there's got to be a, an opportunity sooner to, to bring these things up.

[00:35:21] Neelu: Absolutely. Absolutely. So yeah, so practice wherever you can practice is where I would say will help you be your own cheerleader.

[00:35:30] Loree Philip: That's great. Neelu, do you have any last closing thoughts or ideas to share with our audience today on burnout or self advocacy?

[00:35:40] Neelu: I would say there's so many things out there you can read, you can listen to podcasts. You can consume so much information. Just pick one or two small things and just do those every day consistently and see what, what works for you because what works for you may not work for me. And we all have to create our own cocktail of remedies that help us be our best [00:36:00] selves every day.

[00:36:01] Loree Philip: Thank you for that. And our audience, where can they find you learn more about your work? Connect with you

[00:36:07] Neelu: online. Yes. So my website, neelucor. com, and I'm on LinkedIn, very active on LinkedIn, on Instagram. Also, you can find Be Your Own Cheerleader anywhere. You can find books, Amazon, Goodreads, Barnes and Nobles, all of those places.

[00:36:23] Loree Philip: I know I was actually kind of funny. It's I will drive by a Barnes and Noble and be like, Oh, there's still bookstores, physical bookstores.

[00:36:31] Neelu: Yeah. And they're popping up. The mom and pop book stores are popping up in New York city, which is, I'm so excited about that.

[00:36:37] Loree Philip: That's great. That's really great.

[00:36:39] Loree Philip: Actually, I'm, I've been using the library recently, so I'm like, way old school.

[00:36:45] Neelu: No, I love that. I love

[00:36:46] Loree Philip: that. Oh, well, thank you so much for your time, your insights, and just being a bit vulnerable about your, your shift out of your career. I really appreciate it. I had a really great conversation today. [00:37:00]

[00:37:00] Neelu: Thank you so much.

[00:37:01] Loree Philip: Thank you so much for listening to this episode. If you've enjoyed it, I would love for you to subscribe. If you're already a subscriber, don't forget to share the podcast with a friend. Hope you all have an amazing week. Until next time. Bye.