# 75 – Closing the Gender Pay Gap: Learn Expert Salary Negotiation Tips to Confidently Boost Your Earnings | Empowerment & Career Advice

[00:00:00] Loree Philip: Hi and welcome to Daring to Leap. I'm your host, Loree Philip. Have you ever struggled with getting the salary you deserve, or wondered how do people effectively negotiate for better pay? Stay tuned as our guest Dorothy Mashburn shares the secrets to salary negotiation so that you can confidently boost your earnings and advocate for your worth in the workplace.

[00:00:29] Loree Philip: Let's dive in.

[00:00:31] Loree Philip: Dorothy is a leading authority in negotiation who has a burning mission to champion the underserved at corporate tables and close the gender pay gap. With a track record of negotiating pivotal deals with global giants and managing international teams, her unique insights empower minorities and women to achieve their dream jobs and salaries.

[00:00:55] Loree Philip: Welcome to the show, Jorthy. Thank you so much for having me, [00:01:00] Laura. It's great to be here. Yeah. It's so great to have you here. And what I was mentioning to you right before we logged in is that I'm really excited to talk with you about salary, salary negotiations asking for what we're expecting for what we're worth about the gender pay gap, all of these types of things.

[00:01:21] Loree Philip: And I, I've been wanting to have this conversation for a while on the show. And I was just waiting to find the right person to have this conversation. And I can just tell that you're that person. So I'm really excited about this, but before we jump into that topic, I love to hear a bit about your career story and, what was it?

[00:01:44] Loree Philip: With your career, that caused you to want to focus your energy on negotiations and supporting women and closing the gender pay gap?

[00:01:54] Dorothy Mashburn: Yeah, that is that is, of course, a great question because [00:02:00] everything about what I do on gender is directly related to the experiences I've had. So today, I am an executive in a large medical technology company, and I run a global team but Things were not, were not always like this when I first came to the United States, I'm an immigrant from India at 18 years old very rose tinted glasses and thought that this is a land of opportunity.

[00:02:27] Dorothy Mashburn: I'm going to work really, really hard and the sky's the limit for someone like me, but as I went into corporate. The corporate world even though I work really hard, the results or the fruits, promotions salary was not necessarily in direct proportion to the work that I was doing. I worked in retail, then I worked for plastics and then eventually found my way into health care.

[00:02:56] Dorothy Mashburn: What I loved about health care. There is the purpose of making [00:03:00] health better, making people healthier. But the struggle of women and minority women continue to be a resonant factor, no matter what industry I went to I'll give you an example. In earlier in my career we were discussing with a colleague, a bunch of colleagues about how we were going to qualify for a loan for a house.

[00:03:23] Dorothy Mashburn: And in that conversation, it came out that another, a male colleague of mine started the same time, same level of education. In fact, I had an MBA and he didn't same book of clients, not the same, but like the same number of clients. And he was making 15, 000 more than I was. And it was a shock because it was kind of like the belief that I had that everyone was treated equally, everyone this concept of meritocracy wasn't really true for me at that point.

[00:03:58] Dorothy Mashburn: So that was kind of the [00:04:00] beginning of my journey of saying, I really want to learn how to speak up for myself. And, of course the story, if I continue the story, I went to my manager and asked very badly, really, to be very frank to say, Hey my colleagues making so much more than me and like, what gives kind of thing.

[00:04:20] Dorothy Mashburn: And my manager pretty much told me that we could be fired for talking about salary at work. And so it was, had my tail tucked between my legs and and and left, but it kept coming back to me this thought about why and how I was getting paid less and what can I do about it?

[00:04:44] Dorothy Mashburn: And this was many, many years ago, very early in my career. And so, since then, I've learned a lot, a lot of trial and error, a lot of scars, but I learned how to negotiate and I learned how to be confident in speaking up for myself. And today that's what I [00:05:00] do. I teach others how to confidently negotiate their value.

[00:05:04] Dorothy Mashburn: I hope that answers your question. It was kind of long winded.

[00:05:07] Loree Philip: No, no, it's, it's, it's perfect. It's absolutely perfect because, these are themes that I believe resonate with a lot of people where either we know we're not getting paid the same as our counterpart. And like, oh what do we do about it?

[00:05:26] Loree Philip: Or. Just how do we get to the point where we can feel confident enough to go in the right way and ask for that raise that we believe that we deserve or go go for that other, the next position. And then when we get in that position, make sure that we're getting compensated appropriately.

[00:05:50] Loree Philip: And so these are all things that. I don't want to say that they're taboo, but the experience that you had is part of the reason why people [00:06:00] might feel like we don't talk about this enough. We're not supposed to talk about our salary with others. In the workplace, you're not supposed to compare notes with your colleagues around salary.

[00:06:12] Loree Philip: It's such a secret, right? And so that's part of the reason why I wanted to have this conversation today because we need to be talking about it more. We need to be learning. From people that have been there, done that, and have figured out ways to come around and make it happen for others. So, from your perspective, are you seeing this a lot with your clients?

[00:06:36] Loree Philip: Where, where are people these days around? Like, okay, are they willing? To go in and ask for more, or is it like we're starting at square one where it's like, well, I know I'm not really getting paid as much, but I'm not even ready to go ask for more. Where are you seeing people on that scale?

[00:06:55] Dorothy Mashburn: Yeah, it's, it's, I would say it's a mixed bag for [00:07:00] sure, because I think we mindset wise and we talked about it a little bit before, before we started the show.

[00:07:06] Dorothy Mashburn: We still have this social conditioning. We're talking about money is not acceptable, and a lot of executive women have bought into that social conditioning, and it shows up in the in a way of saying, I'm not in it for the money. This is something I hear a lot when I first speak to my clients, and it is a matter of coaching and mindset shift to say, Well, you wouldn't do something for free.

[00:07:33] Dorothy Mashburn: Like, this is you're what if you are representing your business, would you give away your business's services for free? If not, like, if you think of yourself as Lori LLC or Dorothy LLC, you shouldn't give away your value for free. So it's a little bit of mindset shift in this, in this population of executive women.

[00:07:54] Dorothy Mashburn: And then there are those that who come in and say, unfortunately, they are going [00:08:00] through a little bit of work trauma. They've, they've put in their best and worked so many hours, sacrificed a lot from the family side, and yet they're not seeing the promotions, or they're seeing other people get recognized, promoted moved on to like the VPGM type roles, and they're still being Cast in the supportive character role.

[00:08:23] Dorothy Mashburn: And, and when I talk to these clients first of all, I have tremendous amount of empathy, sympathy with them because I've been there. I've been there and it is a lot of. Trauma to deal with, but they, they are ready and they want to learn the effective ways to say, I'm going to speak up for myself in a way that I sound credible and I'm effective.

[00:08:45] Loree Philip: so Dorothy, if we're, if, say, let's just say we're in that second bucket of, of people. We're ready to move into that next position and we work hard and we work hard and [00:09:00] we work hard and working hard is not working, clearly, right?

[00:09:04] Loree Philip: What is your advice to help somebody shift out of working hard and to position themselves more effectively to either position for those roles, apply for those roles, successfully go for some of that, that, that next position that they're looking for.

[00:09:22] Dorothy Mashburn: It's definitely a broad question.

[00:09:24] Dorothy Mashburn: I'll try to answer it this way. I think you have to, we all as women, mid career women, women in executive roles have to realize that. Working hard is maybe 30 percent of the equation. That's the ticket to entry on. Think about all of the people who are working hard, and maybe you don't see it today, but they are there.

[00:09:45] Dorothy Mashburn: They're all over the organization. So that's just the ticket to entry. You've got to look up and say, what is it that my organization values? What is it that like the number 3? Like 1, 2, 3, what are the top 3 priorities of this [00:10:00] organization? Generally, it's going to be growing revenue. It's going to be reducing costs.

[00:10:05] Dorothy Mashburn: It's going to be some sort of a culture people and culture and talent development. So how can I position myself as the person who is solving some of those top priorities? That's number two first work hard. Number two is go after some of those top priorities. And number three, make your intentions known, let your manager know, let your manager's manager know, and depending on the culture of the organization, some organizations encourage skip level meetings.

[00:10:36] Dorothy Mashburn: So if your manager is too busy managing the team, can you go talk to the VP of that organization to say, Hey, I'm interested in solving this problem. So you've got to make yourself more visible. So the, the, the problem or what we've been taught is keep your head down. Work hard and someone is going to notice you and that, that, that those days are over.

[00:10:59] Dorothy Mashburn: It may [00:11:00] happen if you are, in some organization handsome male, Caucasian guy, maybe another male Caucasian boss will tap 'em. Like, so. It's a joke, but my husband is a white male and he literally got tapped to run a department the other day. And I was like, how does this happen?

[00:11:22] Dorothy Mashburn: Like he's like the least ambitious person and and they just tap him and I'm like, okay, must be different. But if you, if you're not that, and if you don't have somebody who's looking out for you, you've got to say that pick me or I am the one who can solve this problem.

[00:11:38] Loree Philip: Hmm. It, it's such a wise distinction, Dorothy, because I've had this conversation from a couple of different lenses with different people around.

[00:11:50] Loree Philip: People are not going to just notice our good work without us being open about talking about it, [00:12:00] showcasing it, going in and getting that visibility. And so. It's good to reinforce that for people need to hear it because I would love if my work just spoke for itself. I would love that. That would be amazing.

[00:12:14] Loree Philip: But the reality is people are quite busy and kind of in their own worlds. And it's, even if you have a really great boss, they may not even be noticing it because they're just not in their purview and they're not focused on it. And so that is something we can intentionally do to start to put ourselves out there.

[00:12:39] Loree Philip: Now let's dive in a bit deeper around salary negotiations. Like, So I'll give you an example. I, I, I went in and I tried to negotiate my salary at some point. I mean, when I, when I worked at Boeing, there, I got so many, like, I interviewed [00:13:00] internally and got a variety of different positions over the 16 years that I worked there.

[00:13:04] Loree Philip: And there was always this. Kind of unwritten rule, like, Oh, you can't negotiate your salary. And then I heard about somebody who did and successfully did it. And so I thought I'm going to try I'm going to try. And I went in and I tried and they did kind of talk with my manager and they did kind of do a little at first, actually the first time I went in and they said, we don't do that.

[00:13:30] Loree Philip: And then I think I elevated it because I was like. I just talked to somebody that said, actually, they do. And so, I mean, at the end of the day, I didn't get any more money, but they did look at it and they did look at the compensation on the team and they came up with a reason and all this kind of stuff, but let's.

[00:13:52] Loree Philip: Maybe let's just start there. Let's squash the belief that people cannot negotiate their salary. It is worth a shot, isn't it? [00:14:00]

[00:14:00] Dorothy Mashburn: Absolutely. And confidence and way to go for you, Lori, that you went for it. Even if somebody said we don't do it, you went for it. And 10 out of 10 on, on initiative there.

[00:14:12] Dorothy Mashburn: So great job. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Too bad it didn't work out. It's all right. That's all right. That's all right. So that is, that is the biggest thing, right? A lot of people will take, a cultural tenet as the letter of the law so maybe we've always talked about in our organizations, we don't talk about money, or we say we never negotiate.

[00:14:38] Dorothy Mashburn: And so then that, that's, that's It's probably be who's the company to have that kind of a statement out there. So nobody sort of steps out of line, but really, again, going back to this concept of your personal brand and your personal LLC how are you benefiting yourself? Like, so if you ran your own business and you are the product [00:15:00] are you branding yourself?

[00:15:02] Dorothy Mashburn: Are you selling? Securing the price point that this brand is worth. So that's one way to think about it. And then the second part is when you go talk about a raise, and this is internal increase in promotion, make sure that the year that you do that. Is a year that financially the company is doing well, like, maybe they've touted great stakeholder reports, stockholder market reports and, great great rejoicing everywhere.

[00:15:32] Dorothy Mashburn: And that is the year to ask for a raise and then 2nd, make sure that you have a 1 pager when you go talk to your manager or whoever you're going to talk to off the. Accomplishments that you've had in the year and how those accomplishments tied to the results that the company is touting. So there is no way then someone can say, oh, this doesn't count because, well, social media, you're saying that we grew.

[00:15:58] Dorothy Mashburn: 30 percent from [00:16:00] last year, or whatever the accolades that are being paraded around, make sure that you tie your impact to that. And then, like, lastly, be mindful that your manager isn't surprised. So nobody likes surprises, right? Especially in the work situation. So start dropping hints.

[00:16:21] Dorothy Mashburn: Say you're going to have this conversation in February around common annual review time. Start telling him or her around October ish time frame that just dropping hints slowly and then More frequently closer to the day, so they're not surprised the day off. And then I guess the last thing I will add is sometimes because of whatever reason budgets or maybe you've at the top of the pay band, they may not be able to give you a base salary.

[00:16:53] Dorothy Mashburn: Then there are always other options, like 1 time bonuses. Develop personal development [00:17:00] flexibility and work, work structure. So there's all kinds of things you can negotiate. If base salary adjustment is, is kind of a non starter.

[00:17:09] Loree Philip: Yeah, I'm, I'm glad you brought this up. There is a realism around.

[00:17:13] Loree Philip: Even if you did great in the year, if the company didn't, it is unlikely that they even have the authority to grant increases, raises, do some of those promotions and, Not that you shouldn't come, you shouldn't try if you want to, but it's just like, the likelihood is lower that it's going to be fruitful and you're going to get a yes in that kind of environment.

[00:17:39] Dorothy Mashburn: Yeah, yeah. I mean, many years ago, I worked for an organization that the organization itself was not doing well, but the functional area that was brought in to improve the health of the organization was doing very, very well. Yeah. So, in that case, where you can in negotiation, we talk, we talk about, [00:18:00] parsing out your stakeholders.

[00:18:02] Dorothy Mashburn: So this is what you're doing. Basically. You're saying my entire organization. I'm not going to think about it. I'm going to think about this. vertical that is doing very, very well and align my ask to this vertical success, not the entire organization. So there are different strategies you can use even when something is not going well.

[00:18:21] Dorothy Mashburn: If you believe that you are due for a raise, or if you've done a major impact, then you can still ask again, one size doesn't fit all. So every situation has to be evaluated.

[00:18:32] Loree Philip: Yeah, that, that's a good idea. Because you're right. It's not usually the whole organization that's not doing great. It's one group that's like sinking the ship.

[00:18:44] Loree Philip: Yeah. So, it's like, well, but we did great. So. When you work with clients especially women who are coming in and they're looking to, to do some of this, to negotiate their salary, [00:19:00] to increase their, their potential earnings and close that gap. What are some of the other strategies or techniques that you talk to them about, the options that they have?

[00:19:12] Loree Philip: Is there's, there's probably other options besides just asking for a raise within your current organization. What are some of the other things that we can think about when trying to increase your salary?

[00:19:25] Dorothy Mashburn: Yeah. I mean a part of my work is also about securing your next role. So many times clients come up and say, I love my company, but there's just no more growth available.

[00:19:36] Dorothy Mashburn: The only way I can grow is if my boss retires and she's 30 years before, it's going to be 20, 30 years before she thinks about even retiring. And in that case, I do work with my clients to find their next role, next company. And I also, that is why I also teach interview skills so that from the very first contact that you have with your new hiring team [00:20:00] or your future manager, you've set the expectation that you are going to be a candidate who's going to, deliver results.

[00:20:06] Dorothy Mashburn: And you want to come across as somebody that they think, I want to have this person in my team at any time. All costs. So that is our goal. So once you get that kind of level of interest from the other side, that's when you have maximum ability to negotiate the package that you deserve. And so that's part of the strategy.

[00:20:28] Dorothy Mashburn: Sometimes. is securing what we call a BATNA, best alternative to a negotiated agreement in jargon, but really it only means option B. So if you have an option B you are very deliberate and intentional about creating that option B. You may or may not execute it, but you have it in the pocket.

[00:20:49] Dorothy Mashburn: And then it is. Your ultimate control and choice to say, I have two options here. I'm going to give my, it's your option. You can go give your existing company a chance [00:21:00] to either grow you or develop you and give you more. Or you say, I'm going to pick option B where I have a chance to grow and develop as well as secure 60 percent more in salary or total compensation.

[00:21:13] Dorothy Mashburn: So strategies are, of course, laid out in a way that gives the person maximum control, my clients and then it is up to them as to how they want to steer their career from that, that point on.

[00:21:26] Loree Philip: Hmm, this is so true. I remember within my work, it's like the, the management and leadership all of a sudden take somebody seriously.

[00:21:38] Loree Philip: When they have another option on the table, they're like, actually, I got this job offer and I'm thinking about taking it. I've been asking for this, that and the other, maybe we should actually consider that, you know what I mean? And it, before it would kind of fell on deaf ears and then it's like, well, we don't want to lose this person.

[00:21:58] Loree Philip: And [00:22:00] all of a sudden there's leverage to be had right from the, the person who has these other options. And so it, it is a really great strategy for sure. I've seen it work with in teams and groups that I wouldn't have expected, but it is a lot for a company. It's a big expense for a company to hire and retrain a new person into a role.

[00:22:26] Loree Philip: And so it's like you leaving that position is going to be expensive, especially as you move up in up the chain within different various leadership positions.

[00:22:41] Dorothy Mashburn: Yeah, yeah, that's yeah, exactly that is true. You you, secure that leverage, as you said, by getting another role. And then I guess my only advice is if you really like the company, give them a chance.

[00:22:57] Dorothy Mashburn: But if you if it's like everything is [00:23:00] great, except I just need a little bit of a raise give them a chance to say no to you or, or say yes to you either way. And then, then you have all of the information at hand before you make your decision.

[00:23:14] Loree Philip: Yeah, I, I'm glad that you, you said that because what I've noticed.

[00:23:20] Loree Philip: With myself and people is that we start to assume that it's going to be a no. Yes. And we don't, we haven't even asked yet. Right. And maybe it is, maybe they're going to say no, but give them a chance. And then you can feel really confident about your decision and not like, well, I really liked it there. I wish they would have said, No, did you ask?

[00:23:40] Loree Philip: No, I didn't ask. Right? Like, we get in these, we get caught up in our own minds around what is possible. And I think it goes back to what we were talking about earlier, Dorothy, around the culture and the rules and the unsaid things that we're supposed to do and not do if you feel like, [00:24:00] well, nobody's ever got it.

[00:24:01] Loree Philip: this kind of position that I want. I'm not going to be the first. Well, that's, that's an assumption that we're making, and it may be true, or it may be not true, until we won't know, until we take the time to ask. So, I, I saw in your bio, in some of your work, that you support people with confidence. How do we build the confidence to make this kind of an ask?

[00:24:30] Dorothy Mashburn: Yeah, it's it's absolutely a mindset piece, right? We've been trained to fear a negative reaction. So we've got to, in our minds, So in my teachings with my clients, I talk about accept the no. So if you go in saying they will say no, but then what is my action after that? So if you're already prepared for that negative [00:25:00] reaction, Then you're not shocked or surprised, then you can start problem solving.

[00:25:06] Dorothy Mashburn: One of my, one of my books I recommend is called never slit the difference. It's by an FBI, a hostage negotiator, former now, now he trains in negotiations. He talks about that a lot is your negotiation begins at no. So that is a huge mindset shift that if you can. Adopt and truly believe it's going to free you up so much.

[00:25:30] Dorothy Mashburn: It's very liberating to say, they're going to say no. Then what is my next action? Or what am I going to say next? If you prepare for that versus what am I going to do? They say, no, what am I going to do? It's like, just assume they're going to say no. And then what do you say? So like, let's take for you, Lori.

[00:25:47] Dorothy Mashburn: Like if you went and asked for your pay raise at that point, now rewinding time, there is a way for you to maybe say, okay. When is it going to be a yes? Maybe they say never. [00:26:00] Right? How can I my market value is X, Y, and Z. How can you help me? Get equivalent of X, Y, and Z because I don't want to leave Boeing.

[00:26:10] Dorothy Mashburn: I want to stay here. How can you help me? So there are different ways that you can enlist that person to be your ally. That could be one way. There could be another way of what can the company do to help me get to my career goals? So you're problem solving at that point and you're not necessarily going in this tug of war of yes.

[00:26:30] Dorothy Mashburn: No, yes No, because that's not fruitful. So, that that is 1 and then 2nd I really, there is enough research now that affirmations if it works for you. So many years ago I used to write I'm confident in charismatic, like, in my notebook every morning and if that is something that helps you, it's absolutely has.

[00:26:53] Dorothy Mashburn: Help me be more confident. I do it. Usually, I will write it out and something about the [00:27:00] neuroplasticity in our brain can retrain us to believe what we write down. So that is another way to a tip to get a little bit more confident. And then the third thing I will say is salespeople do this a lot before going into prime time.

[00:27:16] Dorothy Mashburn: They go into a bathroom or a rehearsal room and then just say, I'm going to park all my fears and anxieties in a parking lot outside and then go in and have a meeting with their meet with their client. That's another trick to say the anxieties are not gone, but they're just parked for a while.

[00:27:33] Dorothy Mashburn: And that's that's another way to just kind of build up your confidence.

[00:27:38] Loree Philip: Yeah, yes, great, great tips, Dorothy. I, I believe in affirmations. I, I do my own. I have a list that I look at every single morning, and we're just reinforcing, we're creating new, like you mentioned, new, new, new neural pathways in our brain.

[00:27:56] Loree Philip: And the more we do it, the more our brain starts to [00:28:00] believe it, the more it becomes real, the more that we show up in that way that we want to show up and we're letting go of our old way of being, which might be, I'm not confident, or they're going to say no, or all these kinds of things, but I like this idea and you've, you've brought this up a few times in this conversation around thinking about ourselves as a business and what I've noticed with people is that we behave differently when we're You know, in leading something within a business and leading something personally for ourselves, like it's so interesting.

[00:28:38] Loree Philip: It's like all of a sudden it becomes part of our identity. If you say no, you're saying no to me personally. And we, it's, it's so much more difficult to, to be vulnerable and put ourselves out there. But the reality is, is it wouldn't. A business is [00:29:00] negotiating, they have, they expect a no, and they go in with a number that's high, and they have all these numbers, right, and they have a list, and they have approvals, and they just start work so the no isn't like, personally, they're telling me no, it's just part of the process,

[00:29:19] Dorothy Mashburn: and,

[00:29:20] Loree Philip: and so like being able to take away, This is a personal representation of me to I'm gonna go through this process and see what happens because I deserve to get paid what I'm worth and not to just let the culture and society and the status quo be what decides what you get paid, especially if your colleague is making 15, 000 more, right?

[00:29:53] Loree Philip: And there's so many factors around that, but there's a piece of me that feels like, part of the [00:30:00] reason amongst the zillion factors that men seem to make more in equivalent positions is because they ask. And they expect and they push and they're not afraid to say here, no, and they'll, they'll go somewhere else after a while if they don't get what they want.

[00:30:16] Loree Philip: And so there's a bit of tenacity and, and drive that we will have to cultivate for ourselves if this is something that you want, and it's worth it to you. What are your, what are your thoughts on that? It

[00:30:31] Dorothy Mashburn: is absolutely the tenacity piece is huge because we can't get gun shy the first time we hear no, and that's.

[00:30:39] Dorothy Mashburn: I I'm saying this from my own experience. I used to tend to get gun shy. If somebody said no, I'm like thinking for hours at end. Like, how did I say the words? Should I have said it differently? All that would have should have could have right? So we've got to stop that 1 trick that I will give your audience is to think.

[00:30:59] Dorothy Mashburn: So [00:31:00] women negotiate. This is proven by studies. Women negotiate outperforming negotiations. even better than men when they negotiate on behalf of somebody else. So when you're negotiating, the way to bring that tenacity on is to think, who do I love most in this world? And what if I'm advocating for that person?

[00:31:19] Dorothy Mashburn: You can plug in like, it's my daughter, my mom, my father, husband, whoever that person is, and say, I'm negotiating for them. And so when you make that shift in your brain it really helps you. Get like mama bear or like really good at negotiating in dollars and cents or perks and benefits much better than when we're thinking, oh, we're negotiating for ourselves.

[00:31:43] Dorothy Mashburn: Just that little distance from you gives you big results. So that could be a way to build that tenacity.

[00:31:51] Loree Philip: Yes, I could totally see that being true, even though you have the studies to back it up, but I could I can, I think of people I know that [00:32:00] would do that for somebody else, but not themselves, right?

[00:32:03] Loree Philip: Yes. One of the things that popped into my mind while you were talking that I'd love to get your thoughts on is that, I think one of the fears that I've personally felt, and I know other people feel when they're negotiating a salary is when you hear no, and you go in and you decide, am I going to counter offer or am I going to try again?

[00:32:26] Loree Philip: The fear is that that company will pull the offer and that job won't be available to you anymore. In your experience. Does that happen very often, or is that just something that we have to decide for ourselves is worth the risk of having it getting pulled if we keep pushing?

[00:32:46] Dorothy Mashburn: Yeah, good question. And this is something that comes up quite a bit when people are negotiating new job offers.

[00:32:52] Dorothy Mashburn: And in my 20 years of doing this work, it has happened once. And, and that is not because the person [00:33:00] asked, it was the person put all of his arguments in an email and that email got circulated around and people questioned whether this person was the right fit because there was like some misinterpretation of some of the words and the way it was phrased.

[00:33:16] Dorothy Mashburn: So, it had nothing to do with the, the fact that he asked this is a fear that a lot of people have, but keep in mind that. The people across the table from you are also people they've negotiated their own salaries and they expect you. I was like, I'm a hiring manager. I'm not going to go in with the highest offer because I know, or I expect that person to negotiate and then the other pieces.

[00:33:41] Dorothy Mashburn: I'm almost encouraged when I see someone speak up for their worth, because now I know that if they're capable of that, they're going to go to bat for the team that they're going to be leading. So it's almost a test of sorts. So think of it like maybe it's a test. If I don't negotiate, maybe my hiring manager is going to say, well, I don't know if this [00:34:00] person is going to be the person we want who's going to fight the battles for us and go win for us.

[00:34:06] Dorothy Mashburn: So if you kind of reframe that it almost becomes incumbent on you to negotiate for more and, and don't worry about it getting rescinded because that, that doesn't, doesn't happen.

[00:34:16] Loree Philip: I'm, I'm glad you said that because somebody out there needed to hear that today because it is just one of those things you fear.

[00:34:24] Loree Philip: It's like you went through all of this effort, got through the interview process, got an offer on the table and. There's just that little piece of you is like, should I just take it, and so I appreciate your perspective and deep experience on this across all of the negotiations that you've done can help somebody understand that the, the likelihood is very low, very, very it has happened.

[00:34:51] Loree Philip: We'll put that out there. We're not guaranteeing it, but you know, it, it, it. It is very low that that's going to [00:35:00] happen. Before we wrap up today, Dorothy, I'm interested, what did we miss today? What, what other advice would you have for women who are out there navigating their careers and really.

[00:35:14] Loree Philip: Looking to continue to grow and build their confidence and get paid for what they're worth.

[00:35:20] Dorothy Mashburn: I guess the only piece I would say is go big and I always say aim to fail and that's okay. And this is how it could look like. So say I'm looking at a, I want a 20 percent increase. Like say I'm making 100, 000 and I want a 20 percent increase.

[00:35:36] Dorothy Mashburn: Somebody who doesn't go big. This is the my this is kind of the self talk. We're having 20 percent more. That's a lot. Maybe that's way too much. Maybe they're going to think I'm greedy. Maybe I should go with 1 1 10, maybe 1 12 and then the other side counters and then you end up at, say, 106. Right. And so you've already pre negotiated yourself down.

[00:35:59] Dorothy Mashburn: So [00:36:00] instead, what I would recommend is say, I'm going to go to 180 and I know I'm not going to make it. I'm going to fail, but I'm going to go to 180 and then say the counter. And then it ends up saying 140 let's just say, but you still. From 106 to 140, a massive difference. So you can win big if you go big on again.

[00:36:22] Dorothy Mashburn: This is supported by studies and data that teams that go big usually end up extracting bigger negotiation outcomes and teams that are more realistic. So, go big, is my, my,

[00:36:36] Loree Philip: my advice and recommendation. I love it. I love that. There is some psychology, too, around that anchor number, that first number that you put out there.

[00:36:46] Loree Philip: And so, when you see that. It's it's even in like sales, it's just like, Oh, here's my VIP package. It's a million dollars. Or I can offer you this one down here for 20, 000. You're like, I'll take it. [00:37:00] I'll take it for 20, 000. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

[00:37:03] Dorothy Mashburn: yeah, absolutely.

[00:37:05] Loree Philip: Well, I really appreciate your time today, Dorothy.

[00:37:07] Loree Philip: I'd love for you to share with our audience where they can learn more about you, your work and connect with you.

[00:37:14] Dorothy Mashburn: Yeah, so I'm on LinkedIn at Dorothy Mashburn and my website is DorothyMashburn. com and definitely check out the podcast, I give out a lot of value salary negotiations made simple subscribe and like and share that helps with reach and again, lots of great guests and a lot of free advice.

[00:37:35] Dorothy Mashburn: So

[00:37:35] Loree Philip: check it out. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate your expertise on this topic. And, thank you again. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. If you've enjoyed it, I would love for you to subscribe. If you're already a subscriber, don't forget to share the podcast with a friend.

[00:37:56] Loree Philip: Make sure to tune in next week. We will be [00:38:00] speaking with Linda Yates about the power of your personal image in your career. I hope you have an amazing week. It's your time to shine. Bye.