#44 – Career Transitions: Why People Pivot & What You Need To Know (and Ask Yourself) BEFORE You Leap | Empowerment & Career Advice

[00:00:00] Loree Philip: Hi, and welcome to the daring to leap podcast. I'm your host, Loree Philip. I'm so excited to dive into this week's episode with you. We have a special guest on the podcast today. Laura Terrell is here. Laura is an executive coach with over 25 years of professional experience as a legal and business leader.

[00:00:21] Loree Philip: Prior to launching her coaching practice, Laura was a special assistant to the President at the White House, the senior level appointee at the U. S. Department of justice and equity partner in 2 global law firms and an in house counsel at a major global consulting and business advisory firm. Welcome to the podcast, Laura.

[00:00:44] Laura Terrell: Thanks, Laurie. It's great to be with you. Excited to have our conversation today.

[00:00:49] Loree Philip: Yeah, I, I'm so excited you're here. I just love hearing about your diverse background and I'm just really curious having such a [00:01:00] great legal career, doing such things as being an advisor in the white house and all these various roles, what really was it?

[00:01:09] Loree Philip: That made you decide to leave that career and start your own business.

[00:01:15] Laura Terrell: I've always been intrigued by new opportunities when they come along. Maybe that's partially because I look for something that might be interesting or something that might be different. And as I've done that repeatedly in my career, I've often found that it's a wonderful way to.

[00:01:34] Laura Terrell: Grow to develop differently. It's not that I've disliked the roles that I've had, but when something else has come along and I've thought that it could help me grow and develop and really strengthen my skill set that I've tried to find a way that I can see that that could work for me and taking those different.

[00:01:52] Laura Terrell: Chances along the way really led me to, I think, having some great different experiences, having a diversity of what I do. [00:02:00] It also meant that I really enjoyed my legal career. I enjoyed the work I did in private practice and government as in house counsel, but I was also looking for something that gave me the opportunity to stretch those skills in a different direction.

[00:02:15] Laura Terrell: And one of the things I find as a lawyer is that. You spend a lot of time trying to solve clients problems. You trying to find ways to fix things that have gone wrong. You don't necessarily spend as much time maybe connecting with them on a one to one basis. I had some great client relationships. Don't get me wrong.

[00:02:33] Laura Terrell: I really enjoyed the people that I worked with both inside and outside my law firm, inside and outside my company. It was. A great experience, but I wanted something a bit more and I wanted to take some of the things I had enjoyed, like mentoring and guiding and supporting others and be able to apply that in my own professional life.

[00:02:56] Laura Terrell: So, for me, I'd really benefited from coaching. I'd benefited from [00:03:00] encounters I'd had over the years with people that I thought helped me strengthen, helped me. Grow in a different direction and coaching was a way for me to take the next step in my career. I wanted to do something different, not because I disliked lawyering, but because I thought I could leverage it into a different way of connecting with people, a different way of providing a service that people need.

[00:03:22] Laura Terrell: And a different way of, of frankly, just enjoying my life in a different context and with a different texture. And

[00:03:31] Loree Philip: I can totally see having You would just explain it. Okay, there's this part of your career that you were missing a bit. It sounds like that through coaching you could really pull forward and expand.

[00:03:48] Loree Philip: But what was it for you that really helped you feel confident enough to kind of let go of a career that you had built up for years, you've been [00:04:00] highly Trained and educated to go do something so new and different.

[00:04:08] Laura Terrell: I wish I could say I just had the belief that I could do it and I launched it without thinking, but I was actually more deliberative than that.

[00:04:16] Laura Terrell: I had had lawyers who had coached me. I had people that had called me over the years and asked to check in periodically to talk about what was going on with them professionally. I felt like I was giving them an opportunity. To have the kind of relationship that I often wanted to have with someone and sometimes I did have with people as I was coming up in my career as a guidance as a advisor and for me, there was a moment where I said this is really something that I get to do the things that I don't have time for in my day to day job right now.

[00:04:56] Laura Terrell: And if I don't get to do this day to day things. I'm going to regret it. [00:05:00] So how do I go about doing it? I worked with coaches myself. I researched the business. I thought about what my clients might look like. I thought about how I wanted to really talk with people. And I also asked myself, is there anyone That's doing what I'm doing directly out there and given my breadth of experience and the types of roles I've played.

[00:05:23] Laura Terrell: I felt like I could be somebody that a lot of people would say, yeah, I think you really get some of what's happening to me, or I can see that you've been in situations like this. Not that my experience is something that I want to replicate for others, but. I feel like I do understand many of the things that people are bringing forward.

[00:05:42] Laura Terrell: And so when I help try to facilitate their development, their progress toward their goals, I have a sense of some of the questions that I was asking at certain points in my career. And I want to help them through asking maybe some similar points. So I feel like I did my research. [00:06:00] I really considered what I could add that was different, just like you would if you were setting up a legal practice.

[00:06:05] Laura Terrell: If everybody's practicing in the same space. You're not going to be adding much to the conversation and I wanted to add something to the conversation and felt that I could, and I was gratified to see that many people that were referred to me, people that have been in my network said, Oh, I would love to work with you or.

[00:06:24] Laura Terrell: I have somebody that I would like to have you consider talking to, and it's really been a way to also build a broader network, which was also just a really wonderful goal of mine was to broaden my network, not just to the people that I work directly with on a day to day, but more people in the industry, more people in the broader business world.

[00:06:44] Laura Terrell: And that's been terrific.

[00:06:46] Loree Philip: Yeah, that's, that's a great way to put it. I've seen so many different approaches to people who have left one career behind and started a new one. And it's been, there's [00:07:00] been the people that were so burnt out that they were just like, it's time for me to leave and do something else.

[00:07:05] Loree Philip: There were people that just felt like. They wanted something more and went towards a passion or a love kind of focus in their 2nd career. And I really love this approach that you just discussed around. It's kind of a, noticing an area that you want to expand it and then doing your. Due diligence, I guess your, your experience as a, as a lawyer comes in and preparing yourself for this transition and a really thoughtful way.

[00:07:38] Loree Philip: So that's a really good 1 is a different approach. I'd like to transition a bit into having a discussion with you on career pivots, career transitions. And as I mentioned before, I really, it was excited to have this conversation with you because not only do you work as a professional with [00:08:00] others that want to do this.

[00:08:01] Loree Philip: With their careers and make a big change or transition, um, you did it yourself so many times. And so you come from both personal and professional experience on this topic. So when we talk about career pivots, what are you seeing with your clients? Or even with yourself, what are the reasons that are coming up most often that people are thinking about making a transition?

[00:08:27] Loree Philip: Well,

[00:08:27] Laura Terrell: there are any number of reasons that people might be thinking about making a change. And sometimes people say this just isn't the right environment for me. It's not the right culture where I'm working, or I want more personal time with my family, or I want to get off the road and stop traveling so much.

[00:08:45] Laura Terrell: It could be a number of things. It could also be, I just don't have the job opportunity that I have here. I think I'm sort of, Hitting a ceiling and there's not a lot of places for me to go in this organization. So I like to work with people in all of those [00:09:00] spaces. I'll just give you 1 example working with a lot of very talented people who may have to do business development, bring in business in their roles.

[00:09:08] Laura Terrell: Maybe their lawyers trying to get clients or maybe their real estate professionals trying to bring in companies to work with them and sell their services. Or maybe there's someone charged with taking a new product line on and needing to increase the bottom line.

[00:09:25] Laura Terrell: Like, that is a bit scary and feels uncomfortable, but there's either a desire to move to it, or there's a mandate from the work they're doing that. This is something they need to embrace or something. They at least need to feel more comfortable with. So, sometimes the transitions like that can be daunting, but I love people that are willing to approach them and ask for the help they need.

[00:09:50] Laura Terrell: To get more facile with it and to, to get more comfortable in a role like that,

[00:09:55] Loree Philip: it's so interesting because I heard you talk about [00:10:00] all the different reasons and there's we could go through the list, but I hadn't thought about, this idea of transitioning professionally into an area with actually leaving, for example expanding into sales and marketing or expanding into a.

[00:10:23] Loree Philip: New part of the field that maybe you're not comfortable with, but I could see where the parallels exist between trying something new. That's you're. You're pivoting out to a new industry, but maybe doing the same thing, or you're switching fields completely. But regardless of what you want to do, that's a change.

[00:10:48] Loree Philip: It can be scary. And there is this,process that's probably similar. No matter which type of pivot you're trying to do, [00:11:00] does that sound right to you about just like the thinking is the same?

[00:11:04] Laura Terrell: I think so. If, for example, you say, I've got this great opportunity to move up to a vice president level in my company, but the expectations and the amount of people management that I'll have to do, I haven't done that before.

[00:11:19] Laura Terrell: And I don't know that I'm ready for that, or perhaps it's, I want to leave my daily salary job and I want to be a solopreneur and I want to create a business that I've been thinking about for a number of years, but I've never done this before. And I think getting comfortable around the idea of what your strengths are, what draws you to this role, and really holding to that and finding ways that you can embrace that by drawing upon resources that you have, your strengths.

[00:11:49] Laura Terrell: And also recognizing you're going to stumble, things are not going to go well. Sometimes maybe as a solopreneur your revenue is not going to be what you thought it would be the first year, maybe as the [00:12:00] VP and your group, you're not going to hit the targets that, or your KPIs that you've been asked to meet, but you're trying to find your way through a place.

[00:12:09] Laura Terrell: I think perfection, understanding that perfection is not the goal, but getting to the, to the right level of capability. And really learning the role in a way that you can execute on that is important.

[00:12:22] Loree Philip: I think that point you just made about perfection is not the goal is a really important one Because if we've been in our careers our current careers for a long enough We've become a lot of the times an expert or really really good at what we do and we're really comfortable with it and so It is quite scary for most people to then step out of that and try something different that the 1st, couple of times is going to be not great.

[00:12:58] Loree Philip: And that's just part of the [00:13:00] process. What is your advice for somebody who. Is looking to step out and try something new, that isn't used to doing that has been doing the same thing for a long time and is a little apprehensive about failure and not being great at it at the get go.

[00:13:22] Laura Terrell: Well, I'm glad you brought up the F word failure because I think that's a really common theme.

[00:13:26] Laura Terrell: I'm sure you hear it from a number of people, people that are high achieving, very ambitious who've been successful in a certain role. Thank you. I think the largest thing that holds them back is that fear of failure. What if this doesn't work? What if I am no longer the biggest person in the room? What if I'm no longer the most admired CFO or the most admired head of division or whatever it is that has really felt like their identity, it's the fear of failing [00:14:00] in a new identity.

[00:14:01] Laura Terrell: And so I think one of the things that's really critical. Is to look at why you're interested in making the move to another role. How does it reflect your values? How does it reflect your priorities? How does it match where you want to be? And people often say, well, I do want to do that. But I also feel just I'm really tied to this other role and I feel like I can't make the switch.

[00:14:29] Laura Terrell: I want to be able to find a way to take that identity with me. And I think we do take those identities with us. We use and we leverage our skills in new roles. And But I think we also want to have the opportunity to be able to do something that. Is aligned with where we are now and an important principle is we don't always have to be doing the same thing to be successful.

[00:14:55] Laura Terrell: We don't always have to be doing the same job or in the same place. Things happen. Even if [00:15:00] you're in a company for 20 years, a new boss comes in. Maybe your company emerges. Maybe your role just goes away because that particular part of the business is no longer as much in demand. So you're going to have to pivot somewhere.

[00:15:13] Laura Terrell: Probably in your career and change your identity, whether that's stepping up to a leadership role, whatever it is. And I think recognizing that you don't have to give up 1 identity, but you can add others to your portfolio. And when the question comes up, but what if this identity. Doesn't work. What if I fail?

[00:15:34] Laura Terrell: What if I stumble? There's always the ability from for my clients to be able to look out. What can I go and do? Otherwise? Could I go back to the former identity? Could I find something else if they've done their homework? And they've also been the kind of people that have the relationships and the places to be able to draw on the risk becomes smaller because you're doing something new.

[00:15:59] Laura Terrell: You want [00:16:00] to try something else on, but chances are usually pretty good that you could do the job you did before, or you could go on to do something entirely different. So I try to get people thinking not quite so narrow around the idea that we just have 1 identity, but you can have and hold different identities in the same place and at different times in your career.

[00:16:21] Loree Philip: Yeah. And I like, I really do like the idea of thinking about your options and the fallback plan. That was really useful to me because I think we get, we get caught up in this idea that if I leave this role, I leave this position, I switch. All of a sudden it's going away and we can't have it back or there's not other options based on our prior experience.

[00:16:47] Loree Philip: But the truth of the matter is there are lots of opportunities out there, especially as you mentioned, people that are very have a really great background in what they were doing before. And what I've [00:17:00] found, at least for myself, is that trying on something new, this new identity, and even if you're not.

[00:17:08] Loree Philip: To the point of being as stellar at it as maybe you were in your prior identity, you, at least for me, I've noticed I've grown so, so much more faster as a person professionally, just like my skill sets. You're expanding. And as you mentioned adding into your toolbox, I do feel like if I had to go back, I have, I'd have more options than I did before, because I have more skills to leverage.

[00:17:39] Loree Philip: Do you find that to be true too, when you think about with your clients look, now you have all these extra things to draw upon?

[00:17:47] Laura Terrell: One of my clients said to me when they were exploring a major transition, I feel like I have space in my brain that I haven't explored. And I [00:18:00] feel like I've just been in this small piece of what I'm capable of.

[00:18:05] Laura Terrell: I'm scared to go outside that. And we talked about being able to return to that capability and working through the idea that that would always be there, but you were really just adding. Different places getting to know different space in your brain is this client was referring to and I love that analogy because I think human brain is a very complex part of the body.

[00:18:31] Laura Terrell: It's very complex organism. It's something that if we can. Just confine ourselves to a little piece. There are all kinds of other things we do where there's artistic parts of us. There are mathematical parts of us. There might be parts we prefer, and there might be parts we say I can add my checkbook, but I really don't want to do aerospace engineering.

[00:18:52] Laura Terrell: Sorry, Lori. I really don't want to do aerospace engineering for my career, but I want to do something else. And I think [00:19:00] knowing that and exploring those different places, some people feel like they've never had a chance. To really look at those different spaces in their brain, and when they find an opportunity to do that, I have clients that come back and say, I really, really, I check in with people and after they've gone to a new role, and I have clients that come back and say, I didn't know how much there was out there that I hadn't had a chance yet to experience and I love it.

[00:19:27] Laura Terrell: And I think that's what people are looking for is a chance to experience different facets. of their capabilities that otherwise they would never know. And I think most people are pretty excited when they embrace something that is pretty well tailored and they've given some thought to why they want to run to it, not away from the prior job.

[00:19:47] Loree Philip: Yeah. Oh, I love that. Run to it, not away from the prior job. There is so much wisdom in that one little statement, Laura, because That is the mindset, the space, [00:20:00] the energetic level that a person, it's easier for a person to be in when they're thinking about moving, like choosing to move towards an opportunity versus I'm just not happy here.

[00:20:15] Loree Philip: I just need to leave. Kind of attitude, which is, is okay. I mean, there's, there is a, transition point that if for some reason you're in a position that you're not happy with, definitely choose and think about leaving if that's right for you, but then don't just do it out of fear, but take the time to really think it through and do it intentionally.

[00:20:38] Loree Philip: And when you said that to me, that was all intentionality. Choosing to move forwardgoing back to what you were saying earlier about talking to your clients about why they're doing something. I wanted to kind of dive in a little deeper on that piece, Laura, because I think it's really important for us, to kind of reflect on that [00:21:00] because at the root of it.

[00:21:02] Loree Philip: It's so important in our motivational level, our energy, our willingness to try a little bit harder knowing that, that things might not work out. if you could advise somebody who's thinking about, okay, I'm thinking about career transition and, and, and you're asking them why, what does that look like?

[00:21:27] Laura Terrell: It is where I start. And I think the way you begin asking that is not just why are you looking at this transition or why is this job or this particular move the goal that you want, but what's appealing to you about what do you know about this? Who have you talked to? I've had people that have come to me and said.

[00:21:47] Laura Terrell: I really want to be promoted to this level in my organization. I feel like this is the next step for me. Okay. Why is it the next step? What would you do in that job? Are those things that you would want to be doing? Is that something that [00:22:00] would give you skills or a compensation or something else that's really important to you?

[00:22:06] Laura Terrell: I often find that people are falling back on an idea that They're good at something and so they should keep doing it, or they should go to another role because they didn't like that role at their existing company. But it might be you need to think about a role outside of the same one that you had at a different organization.

[00:22:27] Laura Terrell: Maybe it's not that the company was not the good fit, but that the role itself, regardless of the organization is not where you want to be. I've talked with people that are really, really terrific at marketing. They don't want to do it inside a corporate environment where they have a very limited portfolio.

[00:22:47] Laura Terrell: They want to maybe go on their own or be part of a smaller organization where they can exercise different skills and they can be a bigger, skill set that's operating there. So I think it's really important to ask people not just why, [00:23:00] but what's appealing. What do you know about this? And I really encourage people if they say, I want to be an astronaut.

[00:23:08] Laura Terrell: Talk to people that are astronauts, what do you know about this field? What do you know about this area? Who in your network could you contact to see if you could be referred to someone that could do that? Or what do you need to understand about what that process looks like? Maybe that's a long pivot in your career.

[00:23:26] Laura Terrell: Maybe you're an engineer now, but you want to see if you can pivot into that space. You need to really understand what the building blocks are. I find the more information people have. And the more willing they are to get data that can help them think about, is this the right move for me? The more productive and the more satisfied they're going to be if they do make a move to a role that they've really thought through.

[00:23:52] Loree Philip: Yeah, and the information both about. An idea that they have to explore [00:24:00] a little bit more deeply. I, I think you mentioned this earlier too, in your own search or your own thinking about transition, finding the role models, the existing people that are doing it. And having those conversations with them, for me, I found that to be so useful, not only understanding maybe their own journey, but also, like, this idea of.

[00:24:24] Loree Philip: If somebody else is doing that, it's possible and especially if that person has a similar background or did that switch from law to coaching or whatever it is if you can get it as as applicable as you can, you can start to really see the path and it doesn't have to be the same path for, for an individual, because we all kind of have our unique things that we like to That make us tick and how it would work best for us, but just the motivation, inspiration, the [00:25:00] ideas that it's possible is useful in addition to the information gathering.

[00:25:07] Loree Philip: So 1 question

[00:25:09] Laura Terrell: I was going to say 1 question I think is powerful to ask is. What don't you like about this job, or what's challenging about being a lawyer in this company, or what's really. Some of the hurdles that you've seen trying to break into this role at a startup as opposed to your prior job at a long established publicly traded company.

[00:25:32] Laura Terrell: And when I was looking, for example, at making a move to coaching, I actually asked coaches that I, I knew or that I'd been referred to what's the most frustrating part of the job. What's the thing you like the least? What are the things that have been really toughest as you've established your own business?

[00:25:48] Laura Terrell: How do you get clients? What's been the hardest way to bring in clients? What have you done that didn't work? What have you done that you thought was not successful or you thought was a mistake? Not because I [00:26:00] was trying to be critical, but I found people were really open to sharing things that might be negatives about the jobs they were in.

[00:26:06] Laura Terrell: And that is just... Part of doing that investigation. It's not just, hey, let me get the good stuff or the nuts and bolts, but really trying to investigate. What might you not like, or what might be somebody else's challenge that you say? No, I think I could really embrace that. And I don't think that would be as tough for me.

[00:26:24] Loree Philip: Yeah, that's that's a great way to to kind of flip that on its head. And I, I remember having these conversations, I would get a lot of people that would reach out to me when I was in corporate that was in, that were interested in the area I was in, because it was kind of unique.

[00:26:40] Loree Philip: It was, it's a, I was in strategy and so there weren't that many roles within the corporate environment, like specific to that. And they would ask me all these questions and actually, even if they didn't ask, I would explain the, the pros and the cons.

[00:26:58] Laura Terrell: I suspect you also had a [00:27:00] lot of people that didn't really know what a strategic advisor did. And I suspect your role as a strategic advisor.

[00:27:06] Laura Terrell: at your company was different than somebody who might have a similar title at another company.

[00:27:12] Laura Terrell: And I suspect that that while there were things you had in common with people in similar roles elsewhere for us, a lot of differences, because it was unique to your company unique to.

[00:27:22] Laura Terrell: Where you were in your career and how you, made that role and shaped it yourself.

[00:27:29] Loree Philip: Yeah. Yeah. And I think this speaks to a lot of different careers where you go to school, you learn, you learn education in a particular type of area, but when you actually get into a role. So much is on the job training on the job, learning, understanding the expectations and it's different exactly what you're saying, even within the same corporation, being on a particular [00:28:00] team in that area.

[00:28:02] Loree Philip: In, say, this part of the business versus that part of the business could look and feel completely different. And so I do feel like part of what we're discussing around getting outside of your comfort zone and expansion is almost something that we have to play around with, even if we're not making a huge big move.

[00:28:22] Loree Philip: It's like, almost every position. You have this learning phase, this phase where you're. Trying to understand and become, productive in a new position because you've never done it before. And even if you had similar positions in other businesses or other companies, it's, it is new.

[00:28:43] Laura Terrell: I also think that it's really good for people that are contemplating transitions to do some of that exploration.

[00:28:52] Laura Terrell: As long as people forget, hey, you can spend some time maybe, working. As a secondment [00:29:00] inside a company that's been your client or having someone that is your client spend some time with you for a week, maybe do a day where you shadow them. See if that's possible. Have them walk you through what a typical day looks like before you take a job that you say, oh, I've always wanted this job.

[00:29:15] Laura Terrell: This is what I want. But you've never really explored what it looks like. I think that exploration is critical people that I see that are most dissatisfied with transitions. They've made have leapt before they looked. A bit they've just jumped in with both feet, but not really explore it a little bit and ask themselves what can I do to get more familiar with this role?

[00:29:38] Laura Terrell: Or what can I do to get a better understanding? I think that's something we also gain as we become more senior in our careers, but it's something that's just as applicable to people that are starting out just because everybody's going to work at the dazzling new company. That everybody wants to work for doesn't mean it's a good fit for you.

[00:29:56] Laura Terrell: I had a newer to the workforce client. That was really [00:30:00] weighing 1 of those decisions. And it was, I'm being told the compensation package is so good at company a, I know people that just think it's terrific. They're in the newspaper. They're in the headlines all the time. I said, do you know anybody that works there?

[00:30:13] Laura Terrell: Well, I think I do know someone. Came to find out it was just not a good fit. You don't get as much training. There's a lot of upheaval and turmoil because this company is going through a lot right now. And they realized that was not where they wanted to be, but they wouldn't have known that unless they'd actually asked the question.

[00:30:30] Laura Terrell: It only took one person in that instance to really give them the information. It was very different from what the public face. Was for that role and for that organization.

[00:30:40] Loree Philip: Yeah. So if we. If we just walk through the steps, so we talked about understanding the why and really digging into that a bit deeper.

[00:30:51] Loree Philip: And then a very good emphasis on exploration and. From all angles, positive negative, [00:31:00] finding people that are in in there right now that you can understand a bit better if it would be a good fit. And if you have somebody that's thinking, okay, I've done that I've explored. I understand why I'm.

[00:31:15] Loree Philip: I want to go do this can you walk us through briefly just okay what else should they be aware of as they continue to move forward into making the transition happen to set themselves up for success

[00:31:29] Laura Terrell: so far we've talked about external factors what you can do outside of. Actually joining the company, the next stage is really when you get that interview, maybe, and for a role that you think you're interested in is to use that interview to ask questions yourself.

[00:31:45] Laura Terrell: I find so many people go into the interview process and they're preparing the whole time for what are they going to ask me? What am I going to be asked? What's going to be a tough question that comes my way? And I recommend having an equally Maybe not a [00:32:00] tough set of questions, but an equally thoughtful set of questions that you want to ask and ones that really can result in getting good information.

[00:32:08] Laura Terrell: So just asking, for example, what's the culture like here at this company? Might not give you a lot of detail, or it might not give you a lot of useful information, but you could ask, how do your teams get structured when a new project comes in? What are the best ways you've seen people succeed here? What are the ways in which you've seen people really have challenges again, asking some of those negative questions?

[00:32:33] Laura Terrell: What do you see as. The things that I would get to experience in my first year, my first two years in this role, or what would be my immediate assignments and what would you want me to move to longer term? All of those are questions that get a better dialogue going. And part of the interview process is also for you to get to know this company and for you to interview the people are considering you because if it's just one way.[00:33:00]

[00:33:00] Laura Terrell: You're not really getting much benefit out other than being handed, maybe if you get an offer, a package that says, which will be paid and having some nice conversations with people, but too many people treat the interview process. I just want to get them to get to the offer to me. You also want to get to the point where you feel like you have.

[00:33:17] Laura Terrell: Way better understanding, way better insider information. So I think that's a critical next step once you get to that place where you feel like I'm thinking about making this transition. I've got an opportunity. I'm doing the interview. What do I do to make sure this is the right move for me? What can I do more?

[00:33:34] Laura Terrell: And I, I really think that interview process is critical.

[00:33:38] Loree Philip: Yeah, and I it's so true. Part of, especially now in, in the age where companies and employees you're not anymore really signing up for these long term 30 year careers anymore. And so it's so important to [00:34:00] kind of treat.

[00:34:01] Loree Philip: Okay, you're you bring a lot to the table. Your time is valuable. You're transitioning from whatever you're doing now is an important next step for you and making a full decision on is this company good for me? I love thinking about that. It's like putting more value on yourself because that is true.

[00:34:21] Loree Philip: Like you, your next step is important. And even if they offer it to you, doesn't mean that it's the right fit. And taking the time to understand that through the interview process is a great, a great idea, Laura, especially if people we do get caught up in this interview and just being prepared and you don't want to show up and get asked questions.

[00:34:44] Loree Philip: You don't know the answer to and everything. And so I can see why people get caught up and all that. So I'd like to wrap up here a bit, Laura, do you have any closing advice or thoughts on this topic for people [00:35:00] that are interested in making a transition, but maybe still are feeling a little hesitant around it to close this out?

[00:35:08] Laura Terrell: I think the biggest thing people can do when they're contemplating a transition is to think about what their priorities are and how that matches the opportunities that they may see for themselves and to do some exploration around that so that you can figure out how to match. Those priorities with the right opportunities.

[00:35:26] Loree Philip: I, I think that's sage advice, Laura. Thank you so much. And if you could share with our audience how they might follow you, connect with you on social media and, and check out your work.

[00:35:39] Laura Terrell: I'd love to have people contact me. I'm at lauratorell. com. L A U R A T E R R E L L dot com and I'm also on LinkedIn and I love to have people reach out there.

[00:35:50] Laura Terrell: I post a lot of just interesting things I see in my day about the working world. So I'd love to connect as well.

[00:35:57] Loree Philip: Well, thank you so much for [00:36:00] spending your time with us today and sharing your wisdom with us. And I really appreciate it.

[00:36:06] Laura Terrell: Thank you so much. I appreciate your time and it's been a pleasure.